Westone W60 Impressions Thread
Dec 13, 2015 at 2:07 PM Post #1,171 of 1,957
   
 
First,  I listen almost entirely to classical, with quite a lot of orchestral music,  piano, string ensembles (quartets, quintets).  To make sense of this, phones need to render the decay profile of instruments accurately, or they just don't sound right.   I am a pianist, so to remind myself what a Steinway sounds like, I just have to go downstairs and listen carefully to a few notes.  The way piano is rendered on the W60 is hopeless;  instead of a sharp initial peak and rapid decay, there is a rubbery elongation (most noticeable in the lower half of the keyboard).  The piano sounds vaguely out of tune, and slightly like a marimba.  From the same source, the ancient 535s produce a rock solid and largely accurate representation of what a piano actually sounds like, although with obvious room for uncertainty about whether the precise colour of each specific instrument has been caught.  Of course, one can question whether some parts of the spectrum are too forward or too recessed, but the overall sound is reasonably clean and precise.  Unless a tone is sustained (like an oboe or an organ pipe) it decays quickly; both pianos and organ pipes sound more or less as they should.  Not so on the W60. In the same vein, orchestral strings are a huge disappointment, because there is no crispness in detached bowings or pizzicato.
 
Second,  the wash of bass and mids may be euphoric for some, but for me it smears out detail to an unacceptable degree.  The sound stage is spread wide, which is a natural corollary of the low-frequency bloom/bump (and, to a degree, of the slow decay).  Position and perspective are very vague, however.  I cannot hear where the cellos end and the violas begin, as there are just broad areas of sound, rather than well-defined images.  Where there should be layering, with a suggestion of depth, there is just a wall of sound.  The treble brightness doesn't bring definition or air.
 
There have been suggestions, of course, that either the brain or the phones need burning in.  But balanced armature phones don't really need much burn in,  and the brain is not going to learn to capture information that has been deliberately blended away (although, of course, it has a damn good try, and that is why we are able to get musical pleasure even from $50 phones if we put in the time).  No amount of burning in is going to quicken the decay.  So, these are going back to the dealer, and I will start over.    And, yes,  I have experimented with a wide variety of tips (got lots of those).   Also, to anticipate another question,  I have listened carefully to a wide range of recordings,  some 24bit and inherently very detailed, others dating from the pre-digital era.   I did find the W60s gave a gracious patina to some of those old favourites, but at the price of some detail.  On modern hi-resolution material, there was just not not much resolution.

 
Could you provide any examples of what you claim above in bold? I would like to hear this myself, since I am a pianist, and have not experienced what you describe in my listening sessions with the W60. Thanks.
 
Dec 13, 2015 at 4:46 PM Post #1,172 of 1,957
"The way piano is rendered on the W60 is hopeless;  instead of a sharp initial peak and rapid decay, there is a rubbery elongation (most noticeable in the lower half of the keyboard).  The piano sounds vaguely out of tune, and slightly like a marimba. "
 
Could you provide any examples of what you claim above in bold? I would like to hear this myself, since I am a pianist, and have not experienced what you describe in my listening sessions with the W60. Thanks.

It was particularly marked with a recently reissued Liszt disc by Jorge Bolet (CD1 from "The Complete RCA and Columbia Album Collection" (2015)).   In addition to the qualities described above,  it was also noticeable that the W60s obscured the transparency and layering of Bolet's pedalling, thus depriving the piano playing of much of its atmosphere.  Switching back to the SE535s reset everything to "default" piano.  I also listened to a variety of recordings by other pianists, mostly concerto repertoire, with similar effect.  An example of a live Hi Res recording where this was noticeable is the performance of Beethoven's Op 19 Concerto by Maria Jao Pires on the LSO Live label,
 
I did wonder whether I was listening to an atypical pair of W60s,  with faulty crossovers, or defective drivers. That can't be ruled out, although as I returned the W60s to the dealer, I cannot investigate it further.  It seems to me, though, that feedback I got from other listeners was more suggestive of a difference of view about how these IEMs should sound.
 
Dec 14, 2015 at 5:26 AM Post #1,174 of 1,957
after listening w60 and um3xrc for more than 5 hours as AB comparison, i have finally decided to pass w60 as my upgrade target as i find the vocal sound of um3xrc is better and more attractive. 
 
Dec 14, 2015 at 5:57 AM Post #1,175 of 1,957
after listening w60 and um3xrc for more than 5 hours as AB comparison, i have finally decided to pass w60 as my upgrade target as i find the vocal sound of um3xrc is better and more attractive. 
OMG! But cool you can stick with your guns.
 
Dec 14, 2015 at 3:53 PM Post #1,176 of 1,957
Review this century man, I also have um3x limited edition and I listened to w60 my opinion anyway!
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Dec 14, 2015 at 10:56 PM Post #1,177 of 1,957
  "The way piano is rendered on the W60 is hopeless;  instead of a sharp initial peak and rapid decay, there is a rubbery elongation (most noticeable in the lower half of the keyboard).  The piano sounds vaguely out of tune, and slightly like a marimba. "
It was particularly marked with a recently reissued Liszt disc by Jorge Bolet (CD1 from "The Complete RCA and Columbia Album Collection" (2015)).   In addition to the qualities described above,  it was also noticeable that the W60s obscured the transparency and layering of Bolet's pedalling, thus depriving the piano playing of much of its atmosphere.  Switching back to the SE535s reset everything to "default" piano.  I also listened to a variety of recordings by other pianists, mostly concerto repertoire, with similar effect.  An example of a live Hi Res recording where this was noticeable is the performance of Beethoven's Op 19 Concerto by Maria Jao Pires on the LSO Live label,
 
I did wonder whether I was listening to an atypical pair of W60s,  with faulty crossovers, or defective drivers. That can't be ruled out, although as I returned the W60s to the dealer, I cannot investigate it further.  It seems to me, though, that feedback I got from other listeners was more suggestive of a difference of view about how these IEMs should sound.

Thanks for the helpful information. It isn't always easy describing in words what you hear, but you did a good job. I wasn't able to listen to the Bolet, but did get a copy of the Pires concerto which I like. I spent considerable time listening to it and several piano pieces, and this morning decided to listen to some Sheffield recorded Chopin by Lincoln Mayorga (solos works). Something was wrong. I was not immersed in the performance nor did I feel the sound was natural. I may have been hearing some of the anomalies that you mentioned. The tone did not seem natural, and the attack was not perceptible. I then switched from the W60 to my Beyerdynamic DT990 PRO's. The difference was amazing. I could hear the nuances of the piano and playing that was missing with the W60. At this point, I felt a bit sick. I've only had the W60's for a month, and was planning on spending my life with them. However, I decided to give them one more chance. I replaced the Star silicone tips with the foam tips, and the difference became immediately apparent. The foam tips let me hear the detail and tone that I missed with the silicone tips. I'm going to study this some more, as I was not pleased at all with the rendering of piano music using the silicone tips on the W60. Really sorry you were disappointed with the W60. I hope Westone reads your comments and takes them to heart. 
 
Dec 15, 2015 at 4:37 AM Post #1,178 of 1,957
@flipkal.      Thanks for this fascinating response.
 
"The tone did not seem natural, and the attack was not perceptible. I then switched from the W60 to my Beyerdynamic DT990 PRO's. The difference was amazing. I could hear the nuances of the piano and playing that was missing with the W60. At this point, I felt a bit sick."
 
It is terribly hard to capture in words what one is hearing.   But your experience quoted above is exactly what happened to me, including the sinking feeling, except that the reality check came from a different set of phones. Of course, "reality" in this world is not reality, but just an alternative window into the recorded sound, where some part of the chain is altered.  Nevertheless, we both felt that we had been reconnected with the piano, by substituting something else for the Westones. 
 
The point about tips is always a further difficulty with IEMs.   I have never liked foams, but I decided to give these a try with the W60 when the silicone star tips were so disappointing.  My experience was that the foams didn't resurrect detail, as you found;  but that could just be me.   Having tried the foams, the stars, and the Shure triple-flange silicones (which work pretty well with the Shure IEMs), I decided that choice of tips was not the fundamental issue.   My guess is that if you could measure the decay profile of the output of the W60s it would be the wrong shape for piano (more linear than hyperbolic).  
 

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