[Rob Watts]

@Rob Watts Hi and I hope you are well and looking forward to being allowed out! I have not been intentionally ignoring you or your comments, I just had to deal with a little matter of a failed wisdom tooth extraction which rather took over my life for several days.

Many thanks once again for injecting the benefit of your knowledge and for considering this further. All my comments are based on what I hear. For instance I have two different CD players and when I connect them for instance to Dave by optical they sound quite different. I will do more listening to other sources connected by optical and see if I can find any pattern to the differences. None of my listening is with headphones (I don’t own any) and I always either use my active ATC speakers or my power amps connected to speakers.

With your laptop, am I right in recollecting that you use it with its battery rather than with the charger plugged in for critical listening? I admit though that even if that is a correct recollection I cannot remember if you were using usb or optical.



On this I have spent several hours today listening to an iPad (battery only for the ipad, no charger) outputting by usb to my Qutest. I compared this to my usual Innuos Zenith streamer (mains powered). Both were streaming the same file. I simply swopped over the usb cable between the two. The iPad usb option consistently had a hard edge to the treble and it seemed to artificially enhance the treble. This was with Qobuz and also with ripped files (44.1/16) stored on a local hard drive accessed by both the iPad and the Zenith. The iPad was really quite fatiguing to listen to and it was a relief to swop over to the streamer. I checked on the digital streams and both seemed to be supplying the same bit perfect signal from the same source. I have compared notes with a few other people and they say they also have similar poor experiences with using an iPhone in a similar way.

This is perplexing as your experience seems to contradict this and I wonder why we are hearing different things.

Oh dear - I hope you are feeling better.


Let us start at the outset - there are always some technical reasons why things sound the way they do. That is assuming that sound quality has been characterised accurately and properly of course - I tend to ignore comments when someone says it sounds better without fully describing the differences.

On your first point with Dave and different CD players sounding different via optical it's quite easy to explain that - the CD players are mains powered, so will inject RF noise into the mains - and your system has quite a few possibilities for intersecting mains/ground loops, with CD players, Dave and the ATC speakers and/or power amps, so it's not surprising you can hear differences with different CD players. I do not think it is Dave that's causing the issue, but the CD players RF noise being picked up by the amps. I have never heard of any other audio designer talking about the importance of RF noise and how that can change the sound quality. Putting RF filters is absolutely crucial to SQ - and just a simple inductor and capacitor won't be sufficient. Eliminating the SQ problems from RF from the mains is extraordinarily complex.

Onto my lap-top - that was using USB as optical sounded identical when in battery mode (my old MSI lap-top), with nothing connected to the lap-top except for the portable hard disk.

As to the iPad - I have zero experience of using Apple myself. You say that the iPad sounded worse than your streamer - but how is the data getting to the iPad? Here we again have the possibility that increased RF noise on the mains is upsetting SQ. It would be interesting to play a file stored on the iPad, with Wi-Fi turned off and no ground or mains connection, going into Dave.

There are always technical reasons for why things sound different (when SQ tests are performed carefully, rigorously and properly characterised). In the case of bit perfect sources these are jitter levels (not an issue with my DACs) or RF noise (random and signal correlated) and audio bandwidth signal correlated noise. The RF and signal correlated noise needs to be at extraordinary low levels to not to be audible (so far, my evidence is that we are talking about below -350dB). I have never encountered a situation that has not been explained by these effects - that said it is difficult to imagine any other aberrations that could modify SQ that are source related!

 

[audio_1]

On this I have spent several hours today listening to an iPad (battery only for the ipad, no charger) outputting by usb to my Qutest. I compared this to my usual Innuos Zenith streamer (mains powered). Both were streaming the same file. I simply swopped over the usb cable between the two. The iPad usb option consistently had a hard edge to the treble and it seemed to artificially enhance the treble. This was with Qobuz and also with ripped files (44.1/16) stored on a local hard drive accessed by both the iPad and the Zenith. The iPad was really quite fatiguing to listen to and it was a relief to swop over to the streamer. I checked on the digital streams and both seemed to be supplying the same bit perfect signal from the same source. I have compared notes with a few other people and they say they also have similar poor experiences with using an iPhone in a similar way.

Connecting the Innuos Zenith streamer (mains powered), introduces an extra ground connection to the Qutest. There are also ground connections from your power amp and perhaps the Qutest power supply. I wonder is the improved grounding of the Qutest improving the sound quality and reducing the fatiguing sound. It would be interesting to ground the Qutest when using the iPad as a source and see if this improves the sound. The Innous Zenith ground impedance may be less than the power amp. Just my thoughts.

 

[Siz.]

Hello

I am using the TT2 in amp mode to directly drive a pair of efficient speakers in near field (Omega CAMs, 94.5 dB at 8 ohms). Very happy with the results, but...

I will be adding a powered sub-woofer, and I asked the manufacturer (Rel) a question about connection. The reply I got was rather alarming. First:

"don't do that, it is going to damage [the TT2]".

Then, after pushing back, this was toned down somewhat:

"The TT2 is designed to be used as a pre amp - and while you "can" do what you are in the sense of running a pair of speakers, Chord strongly suggest that you don't do this...- its not covered by their warranty".

So I would appreciate some advice.

Currently the main speakers are connected to the TT2 via the XLR output, wired up in single-ended mode. I was intending to use the TT2's RCA output terminals to connnect to a single Rel t5i sub.

The Rel active sub has two alternative inputs:

1. a high level / speaker level input which is what they generally recommend for connecting to the main amplifier (this input has a high impedance - c. 150k ohm - so should not result in a significant load on the TT2); and
2. a low level / line level input for cases where the option 1 is not possible

Since I am using the TT2 in amp mode, I was intending to use it's RCA outputs to connect to the Rel's high level input. But when I mentioned this to Rel, I got the rather concerning response referred to above.

My understanding from comments that Rob has made is that driving speakers direct is not a problem provided that you do not overload the TT2 and cause it to trip. Not sure if this would actually damage the TT2, and/or invalidate the warranty, as suggested by Rel; but in any case this can only happen when using balanced mode. So...

Am I correct that there will be no problem in putting the TT2 into amp mode and driving high efficiency speakers direct from XLR outputs in a single ended configuration, and connecting the RCA outputs to a high impedence input of a powered sub?

As far as the wiring is concerned, I was intending to connect the earth from the sub to the outer shield on one of the RCA plugs, which I believe is the approach recommended by REL when connecting to class A/B amps; I would love to hear from anyone who has experimented with this.

 

[HeeBroG]

I use

My understanding from comments that Rob has made is that driving speakers direct is not a problem provided that you do not overload the TT2 and cause it to trip. Not sure if this would actually damage the TT2, and/or invalidate the warranty, as suggested by Rel; but in any case this can only happen when using balanced mode. So...

Am I correct that there will be no problem in putting the TT2 into amp mode and driving high efficiency speakers direct from XLR outputs in a single ended configuration, and connecting the RCA outputs to a high impedence input of a powered sub?

As far as the wiring is concerned, I was intending to connect the earth from the sub to the outer shield on one of the RCA plugs, which I believe is the approach recommended by REL when connecting to class A/B amps; I would love to hear from anyone who has experimented with this.

I use the RCA's on DAVE to drive my speakers and the high-level input to feed my REL subs. I use the XLR outputs on DAVE to drive my active bass modules in single ended mode without any issues. Not sure how the XLR's work on TT2 but on DAVE the RCA's are suppose to be more transparent so would be more suited for direct connection to my high-efficiency drivers.

 

[ZappaMan]

Hello

I am using the TT2 in amp mode to directly drive a pair of efficient speakers in near field (Omega CAMs, 94.5 dB at 8 ohms). Very happy with the results, but...

I will be adding a powered sub-woofer, and I asked the manufacturer (Rel) a question about connection. The reply I got was rather alarming. First:

Then, after pushing back, this was toned down somewhat:

So I would appreciate some advice.

Currently the main speakers are connected to the TT2 via the XLR output, wired up in single-ended mode. I was intending to use the TT2's RCA output terminals to connnect to a single Rel t5i sub.

The Rel active sub has two alternative inputs:

1. a high level / speaker level input which is what they generally recommend for connecting to the main amplifier (this input has a high impedance - c. 150k ohm - so should not result in a significant load on the TT2); and
2. a low level / line level input for cases where the option 1 is not possible

Since I am using the TT2 in amp mode, I was intending to use it's RCA outputs to connect to the Rel's high level input. But when I mentioned this to Rel, I got the rather concerning response referred to above.

My understanding from comments that Rob has made is that driving speakers direct is not a problem provided that you do not overload the TT2 and cause it to trip. Not sure if this would actually damage the TT2, and/or invalidate the warranty, as suggested by Rel; but in any case this can only happen when using balanced mode. So...

Am I correct that there will be no problem in putting the TT2 into amp mode and driving high efficiency speakers direct from XLR outputs in a single ended configuration, and connecting the RCA outputs to a high impedence input of a powered sub?

As far as the wiring is concerned, I was intending to connect the earth from the sub to the outer shield on one of the RCA plugs, which I believe is the approach recommended by REL when connecting to class A/B amps; I would love to hear from anyone who has experimented with this.

I’m also interested in this as I’d like to hook up those speakers myself in the future.

 

[jarnopp]

Hello

I am using the TT2 in amp mode to directly drive a pair of efficient speakers in near field (Omega CAMs, 94.5 dB at 8 ohms). Very happy with the results, but...

I will be adding a powered sub-woofer, and I asked the manufacturer (Rel) a question about connection. The reply I got was rather alarming. First:

Then, after pushing back, this was toned down somewhat:

So I would appreciate some advice.

Currently the main speakers are connected to the TT2 via the XLR output, wired up in single-ended mode. I was intending to use the TT2's RCA output terminals to connnect to a single Rel t5i sub.

The Rel active sub has two alternative inputs:

1. a high level / speaker level input which is what they generally recommend for connecting to the main amplifier (this input has a high impedance - c. 150k ohm - so should not result in a significant load on the TT2); and
2. a low level / line level input for cases where the option 1 is not possible

Since I am using the TT2 in amp mode, I was intending to use it's RCA outputs to connect to the Rel's high level input. But when I mentioned this to Rel, I got the rather concerning response referred to above.

My understanding from comments that Rob has made is that driving speakers direct is not a problem provided that you do not overload the TT2 and cause it to trip. Not sure if this would actually damage the TT2, and/or invalidate the warranty, as suggested by Rel; but in any case this can only happen when using balanced mode. So...

Am I correct that there will be no problem in putting the TT2 into amp mode and driving high efficiency speakers direct from XLR outputs in a single ended configuration, and connecting the RCA outputs to a high impedence input of a powered sub?

As far as the wiring is concerned, I was intending to connect the earth from the sub to the outer shield on one of the RCA plugs, which I believe is the approach recommended by REL when connecting to class A/B amps; I would love to hear from anyone who has experimented with this.

I’ve been doing exactly what you want to do with Omega SAMs and an Elac sub-3030 which accepts a dual RCA input line level. As long as you can set up the level to get a good match between speakers and sub (Elac has a food app that uses the phone mic for this), it will work and sound great. Live been running this for well over a year, maybe two (time doesn’t work for me anymore).

I did have to get my TT2 repaired (under warranty) for a blown output, which I later discovered was likely due to a bad dual XLR to 4-pin converter (for headphones) so do make sure all your connections are wired correctly.

I have never had a trip or felt excessive heat from the TT2 and generally listen from speakers at -24 to -16 for jazz, pop and rock and a little louder for classical when critically listening or even lower volume for more background music while working. Speakers are set up near field.

 

[ZappaMan]

I’ve been doing exactly what you want to do with Omega SAMs and an Elac sub-3030 which accepts a dual RCA input line level. As long as you can set up the level to get a good match between speakers and sub (Elac has a food app that uses the phone mic for this), it will work and sound great. Live been running this for well over a year, maybe two (time doesn’t work for me anymore).

I did have to get my TT2 repaired (under warranty) for a blown output, which I later discovered was likely due to a bad dual XLR to 4-pin converter (for headphones) so do make sure all your connections are wired correctly.

I have never had a trip or felt excessive heat from the TT2 and generally listen from speakers at -24 to -16 for jazz, pop and rock and a little louder for classical when critically listening or even lower volume for more background music while working. Speakers are set up near field.

Can you say objectively lol, if your setup of tt2 and omega, is/was the right direction of travel, or if someone was to follow you, what would you suggest. I’m not sure if there’s a forum for omega speaker people...

 

[118900]

deleted

 

[ra990]

I did have to get my TT2 repaired (under warranty) for a blown output, which I later discovered was likely due to a bad dual XLR to 4-pin converter (for headphones) so do make sure all your connections are wired correctly.

Hi @jarnopp! Can you please elaborate on this? What was the issue with your converter and how did you fix it? I have created an adapter, tested it, making sure there are no shorts and it's wired for balanced drive using only pins 2 and 3. My TT2 is also at the service center at the moment because of an issue with the XLR output generating noise/clicks/pops in the right channel. I don't know what could have caused that to happen. As far as I can tell, the adapter I've made is fine.

 

[Kentajalli]

My knowledge on this is very limited, but here is what I discovered last week by chance.

My system has two optical outs. Optical 1 out is from my high-end Asus ROG Strix Z490-H motherboard. Optical 2 is from my Asus Essence STX II.

I have the same high-quality (QED Reference) optical cable running from both, one to the TT2 and the other to the RME ADI-2. I mean, the one to the TT2 runs to the HMS, but for the experiment below I connected directly to the TT2 and ensured it's not the HMS creating the effect.

Optical 1: dead quiet when listening and also when sound paused. But after stopping/muting any audio signal on my PC, if I turn the TT2 volume wheel toward max white, there is a hssing noise for about 8 seconds and then it goes back to pitch black. Again, this is only at the highest and near-highest volume setting, so not a realistic real world scenario, but interesting to note.

Optical 2: dead quiet when listening and also when sound paused. After stopping/muting any audit signal on my PC, still dead quiet at max volume.

So what could be causing the Optical 1 which is directly from the motherboard to exhibit that hissing noise at max volume and Optical 2 not to?

I would rather use the Optical 1, because for Optical 2 I have to use a mini-Toslink to Toslink adapter which is probably not the best thing to introduce (even if AudioQuest) with the high-quality cable I am using.

I just dropped in on this issue, so it may have already been answered.
The optical from your motherboard, may have Dither enabled, the dither may get disabled after a period of time ( perhaps the 8 sec.s ) if nothing is being played.
The optical from the sound card, may not be Dithered.

 

[Rob Watts]

Hello

I am using the TT2 in amp mode to directly drive a pair of efficient speakers in near field (Omega CAMs, 94.5 dB at 8 ohms). Very happy with the results, but...

I will be adding a powered sub-woofer, and I asked the manufacturer (Rel) a question about connection. The reply I got was rather alarming. First:

Then, after pushing back, this was toned down somewhat:

So I would appreciate some advice.

Currently the main speakers are connected to the TT2 via the XLR output, wired up in single-ended mode. I was intending to use the TT2's RCA output terminals to connnect to a single Rel t5i sub.

The Rel active sub has two alternative inputs:

1. a high level / speaker level input which is what they generally recommend for connecting to the main amplifier (this input has a high impedance - c. 150k ohm - so should not result in a significant load on the TT2); and
2. a low level / line level input for cases where the option 1 is not possible

Since I am using the TT2 in amp mode, I was intending to use it's RCA outputs to connect to the Rel's high level input. But when I mentioned this to Rel, I got the rather concerning response referred to above.

My understanding from comments that Rob has made is that driving speakers direct is not a problem provided that you do not overload the TT2 and cause it to trip. Not sure if this would actually damage the TT2, and/or invalidate the warranty, as suggested by Rel; but in any case this can only happen when using balanced mode. So...

Am I correct that there will be no problem in putting the TT2 into amp mode and driving high efficiency speakers direct from XLR outputs in a single ended configuration, and connecting the RCA outputs to a high impedence input of a powered sub?

As far as the wiring is concerned, I was intending to connect the earth from the sub to the outer shield on one of the RCA plugs, which I believe is the approach recommended by REL when connecting to class A/B amps; I would love to hear from anyone who has experimented with this.

Yes you are fine with SE on the XLR and the RCA phono connected to a high impedance input.

The problems Chord have had with XLR is that some XLR inputs short pins 1 and 3 together - this could cause damage to TT2. So be careful when using the XLRs that pin 1 and 3 are not shorted together. Also, I do not recommend using the balanced output for loads at or below 10 ohms, as you could get the thermal trips to operate.

 

[Siz.]

I use

I use the RCA's on DAVE to drive my speakers and the high-level input to feed my REL subs. I use the XLR outputs on DAVE to drive my active bass modules in single ended mode without any issues. Not sure how the XLR's work on TT2 but on DAVE the RCA's are suppose to be more transparent so would be more suited for direct connection to my high-efficiency drivers.

At the risk of going off-topic, I would be interested to know why there is a difference between the XLRs (used in single ended mode) and the RCAs, on the Dave or the TT2.

 

[Siz.]

I’ve been doing exactly what you want to do with Omega SAMs and an Elac sub-3030 which accepts a dual RCA input line level. As long as you can set up the level to get a good match between speakers and sub (Elac has a [good] app that uses the phone mic for this), it will work and sound great.

This sounds like a more conventional setup, where the sub connection is made before the power amp stage. Rel are somewhat unconventional in that they like to take the signal after it has gone through your amp (so speaker level rather than line level). Nice to hear that it sounds great!

I think that I might have spooked Rel by referring to wiring up to the TT2's RCA outputs - it is perhaps understandable if they strongly associate RCA with line level ouputs, with speaker posts expected for the high level output.

Live been running this for well over a year, maybe two (time doesn’t work for me anymore).

Yup.

 

[Siz.]

Can you say objectively lol, if your setup of tt2 and omega, is/was the right direction of travel, or if someone was to follow you, what would you suggest. I’m not sure if there’s a forum for omega speaker people...

If an omega forum is too narrow to be sustainable, perhaps a 'directly driven speaker' forum? This could include both TT/TT2 and Dave, and also other efficient speaker options (Voxativ has had a few mentions).

But then again maybe a bit of a mission-stretch for a 'head-fi' site? I hope not.

 

[The Jester]

Some recommend hooking the speaker level input of the sub directly at the speaker terminals as it takes into account any effect the speaker cables have, sounds like overkill to me but the theory at least makes sense ....