Watts Up...?
Feb 21, 2022 at 1:32 AM Post #3,181 of 4,686
@Rob Watts , cd quality through m scaler upscaled to 705khz beats even dsd512 ? What about when dsd64 or any dsd upscaled to 705khz through m scaler vs cd quality upscaling to 705khz through m scaler ?
Sure - good 16 bit 44.1 is better than DSD 512 via the M scaler - that said I have only one DSD 512 track. But it sounds like all DSD - unnaturally soft, with poorer timbre variation, not being able to perceive the starting and stopping of notes properly. And all the DSD tracks I have heard lack depth perception, and sound soft. It's all consistent with DSD's technical problems - inability to resolve -301dB with perfect amplitude and phase accuracy, poorer transient timing due to the 1 bit oversampling and HF noise, and the fact that the modulator changes it's behaviour with amplitude, giving noise floor modulation.
 
Feb 21, 2022 at 10:31 AM Post #3,182 of 4,686
Discussion on digital volume attenuation on another site forum made me wonder about this question for @Rob Watts
We know there are people who prefer analog preamplifier to DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2’s digital volume attenuation.
While for most, the assumption is that they just like the sonic signature of the preamplifier. But I now wonder if there is a lot of RF noise from their digital source that gets pumped into DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2, in addition to affecting the noise floor modulation, would the RF noise affect the low-level linearity too? Basically I was wondering if excessive RF noise into DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2 could significantly affect low-level linearity and noise floor modulation to a point where the digital volume attenuation output is no longer accurate in the analog domain, causing people to actually find that their preamplifier sound better as a louder volume output from DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2 would minimize the effect of the low-level linearity and noise floor modulation issues from the RF noise.
 
Feb 21, 2022 at 10:53 AM Post #3,183 of 4,686
Discussion on digital volume attenuation on another site forum made me wonder about this question for @Rob Watts
We know there are people who prefer analog preamplifier to DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2’s digital volume attenuation.
While for most, the assumption is that they just like the sonic signature of the preamplifier. But I now wonder if there is a lot of RF noise from their digital source that gets pumped into DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2, in addition to affecting the noise floor modulation, would the RF noise affect the low-level linearity too? Basically I was wondering if excessive RF noise into DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2 could significantly affect low-level linearity and noise floor modulation to a point where the digital volume attenuation output is no longer accurate in the analog domain, causing people to actually find that their preamplifier sound better as a louder volume output from DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2 would minimize the effect of the low-level linearity and noise floor modulation issues from the RF noise.
Rf noise from m scaler into Dave and tt2 is way too much blown out of proportion. Imo more transparent is your system more revealing it is for rf noise level changes. It is not the fault of chord equipments, it's just the transparency of Dave and tt2 which reveals even the tiniest changes. If you go solely by measurements, you won't see the effect of rf noise.
 
Feb 21, 2022 at 11:52 AM Post #3,184 of 4,686
Rf noise from m scaler into Dave and tt2 is way too much blown out of proportion. Imo more transparent is your system more revealing it is for rf noise level changes. It is not the fault of chord equipments, it's just the transparency of Dave and tt2 which reveals even the tiniest changes. If you go solely by measurements, you won't see the effect of rf noise.
While my experience with RF noise at home is similar to yours: the more transparent my system gets, the more I notice subtle RF noise issues, having hung out at various dealers and seen different brands of music server products in action, I would say yours and my experience are not representative of the overall complexity of system synergy issues relating to RF noise.
Part of the problem is that some dealers are oblivious to such issues as they're just trying to sell stuff and setup demos quick so I've seen some dealers not notice that one speaker's polarity is wrong, the left-right channels are switched or they turned on the left subwoofer but not the right or that the left speaker is clearly closer to primary listening position compared to the right speaker. So those dealers would never pay attention to RF noise issues affecting Chord DAC performance. Worst I saw was a Chord Hugo 2 feeding a Naim integrated amp that has its own internal ADC for all analog inputs so essentially, I was listening to the Naim DAC and no the Hugo 2.
And then, power products and accessories from power cords to power conditioners probably have a much higher profit margin than most audio components or speakers so dealers sometimes like to plug in as many of them as possible to sell these products but sometimes too much of a good thing means increasing ground loop RF noise. Unfortunately, loyal customers see the dealer is doing this so they try to duplicate this at home.
But the worst offender I think is that some "audiophile" music streamers and servers actually truly generate a lot more RF noise than our modern desktops. I have definitely heard a branded audiophile product (not one that we usually discuss here but still relatively well reviewed) generate so much RF noise, I can totally see how some people can say Chord DACs just sound like other DACs having listened to this specific streamer/server feed Chord DAVE vs another DAC chip DAC. I managed to convince the dealer to switch to Toslink when using that specific server/streamer for Chord DACs.
So on one hand, like you, I do believe for most owners of Chord DACs, the RF noise issue is overblown. But without knowing their entire system from their networking, power treatment, connection scheme and products in use, it is difficult to actually know whether an individual Chord owner is having significant issues from RF noise into their DACs.
As to whether the RF noise issue is Chord's responsibility, in general no. But ultimately, we now live in a world where most of our products are there to solve user issues. Our phones and laptops are designed to be user friendly so that we don't have to bend over backwards to make them work for us. Heck, I just got a toothbrush that tracks whether I'm brushing my teeth hard enough and shows me the exact duration of toothbrushing to optimize my dental hygiene. So it is not surprising that customers buy a new Chord product and expect it to do everything they want it to do. They don't want to come to terms with the fact that their convoluted streaming setup or power conditioning system is generating a lot of RF noise into their Chord DACs. So instead, they want Chord to take care of the incoming RF noise for them.
 
Feb 21, 2022 at 12:17 PM Post #3,185 of 4,686
Fomoab , fear of missing out on another box
 
Feb 21, 2022 at 8:26 PM Post #3,186 of 4,686
Rf noise from m scaler into Dave and tt2 is way too much blown out of proportion. Imo more transparent is your system more revealing it is for rf noise level changes. It is not the fault of chord equipments, it's just the transparency of Dave and tt2 which reveals even the tiniest changes. If you go solely by measurements, you won't see the effect of rf noise.
I absolutely agree that TT2 and DAVE are very transparent. Your logic is flawed though as it doesn’t account for benefits from taking measures to reduce RF from M-Scaler’s output and it doesn’t account for M-Scaler relative to other devices that feed our DACs. I am not aiming to further beat that dead horse as it’s a waste of time. I just wanted to point out the logical fallacy. That TT2 and DAVE are very transparent would mean that in a transparent system additional RF being fed into them could do a good bit of obvious harm - harm that wouldn’t be apparent with less transparent DACs.
 
Feb 22, 2022 at 1:14 AM Post #3,187 of 4,686
Discussion on digital volume attenuation on another site forum made me wonder about this question for @Rob Watts
We know there are people who prefer analog preamplifier to DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2’s digital volume attenuation.
While for most, the assumption is that they just like the sonic signature of the preamplifier. But I now wonder if there is a lot of RF noise from their digital source that gets pumped into DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2, in addition to affecting the noise floor modulation, would the RF noise affect the low-level linearity too? Basically I was wondering if excessive RF noise into DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2 could significantly affect low-level linearity and noise floor modulation to a point where the digital volume attenuation output is no longer accurate in the analog domain, causing people to actually find that their preamplifier sound better as a louder volume output from DAVE/TT2/Hugo 2 would minimize the effect of the low-level linearity and noise floor modulation issues from the RF noise.

Indeed there are mechanisms for RF noise to affect low-level linearity - it requires that the RF noise to be signal correlated though. This correlated noise (either demodulated or with direct audio components) then directly add or subtract to the small signal thus degrading small signal amplitudes. But the RF OP from my DACs are very low, and unlike other DACs, signal uncorrelated - the residual OP is random and not affected by the audio.

If people prefer analogue pre-amps it's because they simply like the distortions and colourations of the pre-amp - most noticeably the extra warmth from adding coupling capacitors. There is no way that an analogue volume control will out-perform the volume control in the Chord DACs from a depth and detail resolution POV.
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 11:21 AM Post #3,188 of 4,686
Just wondering if using a powered speaker could negatively effect the sound when listening to headphones if the powered speaker is still hooked up to the RCA and powered on while listening to the headphones. And could the powered speakers cause any damage to the TT2?

On another issue, is there any benefit to using standard 'cable' (ie for TV cabling) with RCA adaptors for connecting to speakers?

Thanks
 
Feb 26, 2022 at 4:14 AM Post #3,189 of 4,686
A correctly functioning powered speaker certainly will not cause any damage to TT2.

On the face of it leaving it on whilst listening to headphones should be fine, as the RCA phono hot pin is disconnected - but the ground pin is still connected. If the powered speaker is creating RF noise currents through the ground, then there is a possibility of this making TT2 sound brighter. How bad that will be depends upon the powered speaker; I would try turning the powered speaker on and off, and see if you can actually hear anything. If you can't hear a change, or the change is too small to worry about, then leave them on.
 
Feb 27, 2022 at 6:26 PM Post #3,190 of 4,686
Hi Rob
Regarding your work on ADC's, are there any aspects of the improvements you have achieved with Davina which could be reverse engineered into a DAC to 'correct' failings of past ADC's in our existing recordings?

EDIT: Said DAC when I meant ADC
 
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Mar 1, 2022 at 5:19 PM Post #3,191 of 4,686
is there a recommended adapter to get a coaxial connection into the hugo 2? there's no optical output on my streamer. only usb and spdif coaxial, and i would prefer not to use a micro usb adapter...
 
Mar 1, 2022 at 10:43 PM Post #3,192 of 4,686
is there a recommended adapter to get a coaxial connection into the hugo 2? there's no optical output on my streamer. only usb and spdif coaxial, and i would prefer not to use a micro usb adapter...
I just use a good-quality 3.5mm to dual RCA adaptor -- the same ones used for analog can be used for the Hugo 2's coaxial inputs.
 
Mar 1, 2022 at 11:30 PM Post #3,193 of 4,686
I just use a good-quality 3.5mm to dual RCA adaptor -- the same ones used for analog can be used for the Hugo 2's coaxial inputs.
anything specific you recommend? i'm using a pwaudio rca adapter so there's not much real estate beside the coaxial jack
 
Mar 2, 2022 at 4:39 AM Post #3,194 of 4,686
anything specific you recommend? i'm using a pwaudio rca adapter so there's not much real estate beside the coaxial jack
The ones I have are from Japan, such as Sony and Audio Technica. If I only intent to use one input, and space is an issue, a TS to single RCA adaptor will work.
 
Mar 2, 2022 at 4:46 AM Post #3,195 of 4,686
Hi Rob
Regarding your work on ADC's, are there any aspects of the improvements you have achieved with Davina which could be reverse engineered into a DAC to 'correct' failings of past ADC's in our existing recordings?

EDIT: Said DAC when I meant ADC

I have just got back from CanJam NYC - great show, brilliant to be able to travel and do shows again!

One of the things I have been looking at was cleaning up aliasing distortion from existing recordings, and I concluded that there is not much mileage in that.

The only way we can really improve existing recordings is by improving M scalers/DACs/amps and the transducers. Fortunately, there is still a lot of mileage there!
 

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