Wadia 27ix Digital to Analog Converter (and other pre-2007 Wadia DACs)

Apr 7, 2022 at 11:40 AM Post #46 of 60
I didn't know where to post this and didn't want to hijack an existing thread, so I decided to start one.

Recently, a friend of mine was kind enough to pass along a small portion of his considerable knowledge and experience, and in doing so casually threw down a gauntlet: compare a 20+ year old DAC from the late 90’s with my beloved Soulution 560 as well as my recently acquired Mola Mola Tambaqui. I confidently accepted his challenge assuming there was no possible way a DAC that old could compete with modern design, components and performance. I was technically right in couple of areas. But so very, very wrong in so many others. The DAC is question was a Wadia 27ix v3.0.

I’m still fairly new to this hobby and I had never heard of Wadia. It turns out they were one of the very first companies, and almost certainly the best, to focus on digital audio reproduction back in the late 1980's. They remained among the best in the business until the mid-to-late 90's when Wadia began to suffer from poor direction and mismanagement. The meandering continued until they were finally sold in 2000, again in 2011, then for the last time in 2019, after which they were completely liquidated. The Wadia name is now dead and gone, but after the sale(s), some of the engineers responsible for driving many of the innovations at Wadia defected to what is now McIntosh (yep...this one: https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/). A couple others started another company, Exogal, that recently shut it's doors just over a month ago. Quite sad really as many of these folks will go down as some of the best and most pioneering audio engineers ever.

Right. History lesson over. Back in the late 90's, the 27ix DAC + 270SE CD player combo retailed for around 25k (approx. 43k today) and I fully understand why. This DAC is a perfect example of the not-so-subtle differences between "Real-Fi" music reproduction and “Hi-Fi” music representation. I finally understand why so many older audio purists consider many of the old Burr Brown DAC chips like the 63, 1702 and 1704k to be the absolute pinnacle of "ladder" style chip performance. The 27ix has eight 1702 chips that make music sound so incredibly authentic, engaging, life-like, dynamic, musical and supremely addicting. The 27ix just begs you to keep listening. For example, three hours just flew by like 10 minutes. Multiple playlists were devoured. Multiple genres drawn and loosed. And here I sit...typing this diatribe while desperately searching for another vein in which to push the Wadia needle. This is the only headphone system I've ever experienced that has gotten me out of my chair dancing with headphones on. The sound out of this setup is so highly textured, liquid and musical that you could pour it into a glass (as my friend likes to say). It is a legitimate tragedy that whatever voodoo Wadia put in this thing isn't regularly reproduced in modern gear at a reasonable price (none that I've ever heard anyway).

I ultimately chose the 27ix over the $43,000 Soulution 560, despite the 560 wrecking the 27ix in raw performance, resolution and clarity (while also being the better overall DAC in my opinion). The 27ix is just so much more musically engaging and addictive to my ears and makes the 560 sound slightly "dead" by comparison. The Mola Mola Tambaqui wasn't a particularly close rival either, save for the usual "Hi-Fi" tropes of ridiculous levels of detail combined with a digitally manufactured sense of "analog" sound. For the record, the MMT will absolutely give you one of the best digital renditions of "analog" sound you can get at it's price point, but it doesn't sound even remotely as natural, balanced, textured, liquid, engaging or addictive as the 27ix.

If you want to squeeze every last drop of detail and bit of resolution out of music, the 27ix probably isn't for you (though it is still highly resolving when paired with modern high-end gear). On the other hand, if you want your wife to divorce you because you installed a toilet in your listening room so you never have to leave, the 27ix (along with some of the other older Wadia DACs like the 9, 15, 25, 27, 27i, and 931) should be very high on your list. Many of these older Wadias aren't as handicapped as you might think. Quite the opposite actually. Many of them absolutely dunk on the majority of DACs produced today. The words "musically addictive" would be a gross understatement. These DACs are filled with some sort of ruthlessly addictive musical crack that will always leave you "Jonesing" for another hit. You'll think it about it at work. You'll think about it at dinner. You think about it in the shower. You'll make bizarre self-compromises and excuses so you can listen to, "just one more song...". It really is that addicting (it was for me anyway). Try one and let your ears decide. Just be warned - some of these older DACs, especially the Wadia 27ix, could end up shattering your will, right along with your preconceived notions of what a truly great DAC sounds like. You have been warned.

Lastly, for any Abyss AB-1266 Phi TC owners out there, the 27ix did something very similar to the WA33: it gently breathed the soul of music in to TCs. Using the HIFIMAN Susvaras on this setup did unspeakable things to my brain that may or may not have triggered an unscheduled cleaning of both the front and back of my pants.

-lj

Have you tried any of the better DACs from LampizatOr, Nagra, Ayon, MSB or ALP they are very good and sound nothing like Chord Dave?

Also what server/streamer do you have and what digital interface (USB, SPDIF, I2S etc.) do you use today?
 
Apr 7, 2022 at 1:03 PM Post #47 of 60
Have you tried any of the better DACs from LampizatOr, Nagra, Ayon, MSB or ALP they are very good and sound nothing like Chord Dave?

Also what server/streamer do you have and what digital interface (USB, SPDIF, I2S etc.) do you use today?
The only DACs I've tried from your list are the MSB Select and Discrete, but others in this thread highly recommended the Lampizator tube DACs. I will let others chime in on those as I can't say one way or another. Personally speaking, the MSB Select is the best DAC I have ever heard - bar none. Period. Sadly, I don't have 100k to drop on a DAC though :) The MSB Discrete was also quite good, but I would personally take the Soulution 560 over the MSB Discrete and the Wadia 27ix over both, despite the 560 and Discrete wiping the floor with the 27ix in almost every way save for musicality and engagement. As for the Chord Dave, it is an excellent "Hi-Fi" DAC, especially with upgraded power supplies. It is an incredibly well resolving detail monster, but sounds a bit fake, harsh and "digital" to my ears. It is a very "exciting" DAC, but I prefer a much less "enhanced" and more true-to-life musical and engaging sound. That doesn't mean the Dave is bad at all. It just doesn't match my preferences and please keep in mind that my preferences won't necessarily match yours.

From a cost perspective, I nabbed the 27ix DAC and 270SE CD player combo for 5k USD shipped and I will be sending the 27ix in for a full system, component, and power upgrade that ended up costing approx. 4k USD. After the upgrade is complete, I fully expect the 27ix to very slightly trail, meet, or exceed the 560 and Discrete in almost every way. So that means I will have spent just shy of 10k on a DAC that will almost certainly meet or exceed the performance of others costing between 2 and 6 times as much (and to be fair, the 27ix would have been 2 or 3k cheaper if I didn't have to purchase the CD player with it). But as with everything in audio, you have to be ok with the tradeoffs; no warranty, 24/96kHz limitation, no usb port, no AirPlay/DLNA, no "gee whiz" nerd nobs, no fancy touch screen interfaces, potentially expensive service if something breaks, etc. Get the picture?

As for streamers, I have a custom server/streamer built by a buddy of mine that used to work at Taiko Audio. On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being two cups and a string and 10 being the best streamer known to man, I'd give it a solid 6.5. It runs a custom AudioLinux operating system under Roon. I currently use an "El Cheapo" refurbished USB to AES converter until my full Mutec re-clocking setup arrives (which will provide the AES to USB conversion and reclocking natively by design). Currently running; Server/streamer USB ---> Converter ---> 27ix AES ---> Dual XLR to Amp.

If you are truly chasing the very best sound you can possibly get, you should definitely consider older gear or be prepared to spend a sh1tload of money on new. I'm noticing that you can get shockingly great, or in some cases even superior, performance buying old instead of new. If you do decide to go old, remember to factor in the cost of initial maintenance and restoration (recapping, etc.) or look for gear that has been recently serviced. Older gear seems to offer some of the very best price-to-performance you can get. That said, if you don't want to mess with old gear and absolutely must have new, my next choice would likely be "Chi-Fi". It is beginning to put both american and european gear to shame for significantly less money.

Lastly, always remember there is no substitute for your ears and your experience. Don't get caught up in marketing BS, chasing measurements, other's opinions (including mine), or anything else. The only path to true audio bliss is to try as much as you possibly can and let your ears decide. I had a couple of well-intentioned folks try to explain this to me early on in my audio journey and I spent a sh1itload of money ignoring them because I was impatient and thought I knew better. I didn't.

Hope this helps!

- lj
 
Last edited:
Apr 8, 2022 at 8:58 AM Post #48 of 60
Now THIS is fascinating. It explains why I hear and prefer what I do. Now I have actual technical reasoning and understanding behind my preferences.
Unfortunately, you don’t because that wasn’t really correct or rather, was extremely rarely correct (see below). You are right though in considering music production (recording, mixing and mastering) more than DACs, because DACs were largely perfected during the 1990s. Since then it’s just been a case of being able to make them for peanuts or finding new ways to solve problems that have already been solved.
Tape and time was really expensive for lot of the bands in the early days. That resulted in them playing the whole take live into just a set of few microphones/tracks, sometimes it has just taken a single take so the wear on the tape is at minimum. So you basically captured a well adjusted combo at their fullest attention in a room playing together with minimum mixing involved.
That depends on what you mean by the “early days”? In the 1950’s and earlier maybe but far less so towards the end of the ‘50s and through the ‘60s onwards. A single take was very rare even in the ‘50s. By the end of the 50s and through the 60s bands were commonly multi-tracking and production methods employed by many of the most successful bands in the 60s relied on it (for Phil Spectre’s “Wall of Sound”) and other techniques.

Again during the 50s, artificial reverb became available. By the 60s pretty much every commercial studio had echo chambers, spring and plate reverbs and the EMT 140 reverb was almost ubiquitous until digital reverb became available in the mid/late ‘70s. And, most of these had an artificial/metallic sound but that was desirable in some cases (electric guitar for example). There was a great deal of mixing involved even by the early 60s. I’m sure there are some odd exceptions but they’re rare.
There are some recording studios moving to the other extremes like single mic recordings, and you can easy understand why.
I don’t know of any studios doing that and I can’t understand why they would. There’s little/no market for mono recordings anymore and multi-micing provides more opportunity for a realistic/natural sound, if that is the aim, which it often isn’t with most genres.
Or someone like 2L recording mainly in natural buildings which does produce the reverb to create the natural envelope without the need for processing.
No, they still need processing. Although how much is relative because classical, jazz and some other acoustic genres use far less processing than pop/rock/electronic genres. Also, location recording is common with classical music and studio live rooms are deliberately designed to have good/natural acoustics. Again, it all still needs processing though.

G
 
Apr 8, 2022 at 10:41 AM Post #50 of 60
Not going to argue, you seem to be the expert…
But then you do argue …
Obviously it doesn’t if you’ve got two mic capsules in one mic body but then you’ve effectively got 2 mics of course! Even using a single stereo pair is extremely rare in professional recording, because it’s not optimal in the vast majority of cases, certainly not for rock/popular genres, orchestral music and most other professional scenarios. And again, this was known and extensively explored in the 1950’s.

G
 
Last edited:
Dec 18, 2022 at 1:04 AM Post #51 of 60
Quick update for those interested: I finally discovered why the Wadia 27ix is so especially pleasing to my ear holes:

1. Great DAC engineering (but nothing overly special by today's standards)
2. Patented/proprietary digital algorithms and low-pass filters.

That's it. That's the source of the magic and that's why I couldn't replicate it with another DAC. It's a special blend of general R2R-y goodness and digital trickery that results in outstanding musicality and engagement.
 
Last edited:
Dec 18, 2022 at 3:21 AM Post #52 of 60
Wadia was an engineering-focused brand, much like Weiss, dCS, Emm Labs, etc. If they were still in business, they would have long abandoned R-2R and gone full FPGA oversampling or DSD. R-2R is ancient tech, and let's just leave it at that. There is no magic in digital reproduction, it's all math and science.
 
Dec 18, 2022 at 7:56 AM Post #53 of 60
Wadia was an engineering-focused brand, much like Weiss, dCS, Emm Labs, etc. If they were still in business, they would have long abandoned R-2R and gone full FPGA oversampling or DSD. R-2R is ancient tech, and let's just leave it at that. There is no magic in digital reproduction, it's all math and science.
Ladder DAC technology is still evolving, just check out MSB, Aries Cerat, Rockna, Totaldac and more.
 
Dec 19, 2022 at 5:00 PM Post #54 of 60
Wadia was an engineering-focused brand, much like Weiss, dCS, Emm Labs, etc. If they were still in business, they would have long abandoned R-2R and gone full FPGA oversampling or DSD. R-2R is ancient tech, and let's just leave it at that. There is no magic in digital reproduction, it's all math and science.

I agree with @Articnoise on this one - R2R is still definitely evolving (at the high end at least). That said, I think you are right about FPGA being a superior tech though. In theory, you can make an FPGA DAC sound like whatever you want it to, therefore eliminating the need for R2R in the first place. Makes perfect sense.

The point I was trying to make about the Wadia algorithms and filters is that they seem to be the only real reason I love that DAC. I tried so many others that flat out destroyed it in pretty much every way. But the sound of those algorithms/filters is so addicting and intoxicating I just can't bring myself to use anything else...despite the fact it is older than Jesus lol.
 
Aug 28, 2023 at 1:32 AM Post #55 of 60
It's been so long since I last heard a Wadia, so not all that relevant experience.

These would be my top contenders for modern musical dacs
Next Generation Linn Klimax DSM
Emm Labs DA2
Playback Designs Dream DAC
MSB (you already like their dacs)

Step down to their next best or last gen if price is an issue.

Just wanted to say that you were right. I finally found a modern DAC I like more than my old Wadia at a reasonable price (to me anyway). The winner is the MPD-8 Dream DAC from Playback Designs. Holy crap is this thing good. It's really hard to describe the sound and I never heard anything quite like it. The MPD-8 isn't quite as addictive as the Wadia, say 8 out of 10 (with the Wadia being 10 out of 10), but it smokes the Wadia so hard in literally every other way. I eventually narrowed my search to the MPD-8 vs the MSB Premier. The MSB "performed" slightly better overall in my system, but also costs at least double the price and just sounds...different. The MPD-8 turns music into more of a true-to-life experience as opposed to something that is just phenomenal to listen to. It's really hard to explain.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I guess it's true that some of the best gear is often made by the least known brands.
 
Aug 28, 2023 at 8:19 AM Post #56 of 60
@littlej0e Had a change to hear any of the Playback Designs streamers with your MPD-8?
Like the Dream Player or Edelweiss Streamer?

Just wanted to say that you were right. I finally found a modern DAC I like more than my old Wadia at a reasonable price (to me anyway). The winner is the MPD-8 Dream DAC from Playback Designs. Holy crap is this thing good. It's really hard to describe the sound and I never heard anything quite like it. The MPD-8 isn't quite as addictive as the Wadia, say 8 out of 10 (with the Wadia being 10 out of 10), but it smokes the Wadia so hard in literally every other way. I eventually narrowed my search to the MPD-8 vs the MSB Premier. The MSB "performed" slightly better overall in my system, but also costs at least double the price and just sounds...different. The MPD-8 turns music into more of a true-to-life experience as opposed to something that is just phenomenal to listen to. It's really hard to explain.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I guess it's true that some of the best gear is often made by the least known brands.
 
Aug 28, 2023 at 1:49 PM Post #57 of 60
@littlej0e Had a change to hear any of the Playback Designs streamers with your MPD-8?
Like the Dream Player or Edelweiss Streamer?
Unfortunately, no as I use my own custom streamer. But I've heard good things about the Edelweiss, especially paired with the MPD-8.

I will say Playback Designs USB-X4 converter should be mandatory. Gives a very nice uplift. I pitted it against my Adnaco converters, but the PD was much better sonically.
 
Sep 2, 2023 at 12:02 PM Post #58 of 60
Just wanted to say that you were right. I finally found a modern DAC I like more than my old Wadia at a reasonable price (to me anyway). The winner is the MPD-8 Dream DAC from Playback Designs. Holy crap is this thing good. It's really hard to describe the sound and I never heard anything quite like it. The MPD-8 isn't quite as addictive as the Wadia, say 8 out of 10 (with the Wadia being 10 out of 10), but it smokes the Wadia so hard in literally every other way. I eventually narrowed my search to the MPD-8 vs the MSB Premier. The MSB "performed" slightly better overall in my system, but also costs at least double the price and just sounds...different. The MPD-8 turns music into more of a true-to-life experience as opposed to something that is just phenomenal to listen to. It's really hard to explain.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I guess it's true that some of the best gear is often made by the least known brands.
Nice to be done on the dac front, and I was happy to help. It will be a few more years before I am ready to upgrade from Emm Labs to PBD. I have been reluctant to go with PBD because the streamer for PBD-8 is another $15k+ I believe. After having lived with fiber connection between streamer and dac there is no going back to toslink/AES/coax/USB - it's so much better than any other connection method in terms of sound quality (at least on Emm Labs gear, and I am sure the same experience applies to PBD gear).
 
Last edited:
Jul 17, 2024 at 3:28 AM Post #59 of 60
Hello to everybody contributing to this thread,
I´ve just read through it and I must say

it is one of the best threads I´ve ever read in my HiFi carreer.

Not only in regard to the W27 but also in general about the characteristics of multibit chips such as PCM1702/1704.
I started my love for Wadia some 15 yrs ago when I bought an 861SE, which I still own.
After four yrs or so, I thought the sound of it was a little bit mushy and I started looking around for alternatives with the PCM1704 as chips.
I bought some Ayon DAC with four of them which sounded crappy.
I bought a TotalDac Balanced which sounded good with the right XLR cable.
I bought a Lampizator Big 5 with the multibit dac board, which has a nice flow, but overall doesn´t best the W27.

And I finally bought a 27iX V3 which, after some renovations, ist by far the best performing DAC I´ve ever listened to.
Renovations were the exchange of all electrolytic capacitors, even the SMD ones and taking out the ~ 4 parts (Some kind of special diodes and some Cs, I think it was.) at the analogue outputs, same as GNSC did.

After that I would say there isn´t a more recent DAC which can beat the 27.
Maybe the big Wadia combo 931 & 922, which I would buy in a second if some reasonable offer comes my way.
One factor, which was already mentioned here, is the filter algorithm, which Wadia obviously has done a great job about.
Others may have used the 1702/1704 too, but without the right software for the filters they´ll not perform as good as the Wadias do.

With that said, the BB multibit chips are the best DAC chips ever designed and made, but in order to be able to experience their full potential in an an older DAC, the unit will need to be completely recapped, at least the PSU.
 
Last edited:
Aug 30, 2024 at 12:44 PM Post #60 of 60
And I finally bought a 27iX V3 which, after some renovations, ist by far the best performing DAC I´ve ever listened to.
Renovations were the exchange of all electrolytic capacitors, even the SMD ones and taking out the ~ 4 parts (Some kind of special diodes and some Cs, I think it was.) at the analogue outputs, same as GNSC did.

As my WADIA 27 (30 years old now) shows only on one channel on negative slope some glitches as 0FFhex to 100Hex related changes. So time to replace the pitta.

It may also the obsolete shunt regulator, but who knows. In addition all PCB's are sandwiched in opposite manner, as impossible to check at the resistors/cap's/chip bin's.

Now it comes to the black Tantalum as 47uF/100uF 10V (Panasonic TE series original). Newer brands have higher leakage current and lower ESR. This means no idea, what the PCM1702/4 DAC chips accepts.

So one may post the used Tantalum for Re-Cap.

Hp
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top