[chesebert]

These are just some of the DACs I’ve tried thus far:

- Wadia 9
- Wadia 25
- Wadia 27ix
- Levinson 30
- Levinson 30.6
- Levinson 36
- Schiit yggdrasil
- Schitt Modi Uber
- RME ADI-2
- Chord Dave
- Chord TT2
- Holo Spring 2
- Holo May KTE
- Soulution 560
- Soulution 760
- MSB Descrete
- MSB Select
- dCS Rossini
- dCS Bartok
- dCS Vivaldi
- Rockna Wavedream Signature
- CH Precision C1
- Trinity DAC
- Mola Mola Tambaqui

Honestly, I’m less concerned with hearing someone’s nose hair than I am actually enjoying music. There is no question that newer DACs are much more resolving and detailed. But from the perspective of accuracy, naturalness, musicality, texture and straight up musical engagement, there are the MSB Select, Trinity, Soulution 560, Wadia 25/27ix, Levinson 30.6 and a handful of other 1704 chipped DACs I just tried. That’s it. Nothing else I’ve heard comes close to these levels of engagement. Regarding the old Wadias specifically, the dynamics are excellent as is the overall timbre and tone, though it does lean a bit warm. I suspect the “magic” I hear from this DAC is a special blend of 1702 goodness and proprietary digital filters. Have you actually tried any of these old high end Wadia DACs and compared them directly with newer DACs?!?

If so, would you please be kind enough to recommend another modern DAC that might be a better fit for my tastes?

It's been so long since I last heard a Wadia, so not all that relevant experience.

These would be my top contenders for modern musical dacs
Next Generation Linn Klimax DSM
Emm Labs DA2
Playback Designs Dream DAC
MSB (you already like their dacs)

Step down to their next best or last gen if price is an issue.

 

[littlej0e]

These would be my top contenders for modern musical dacs
Next Generation Linn Klimax DSM
Emm Labs DA2
Playback Designs Edelweiss DAC
MSB (you already like their dacs)

Excellent! Appreciate the recommendations. Have you compared any of these directly with older Levinson, Wadia, Accuphase, Rotel or Audio Note DACs? If so, why did you prefer the newer DACs? Straight detail and resolution capabilities?

 

[chesebert]

Excellent! Appreciate the recommendations. Have you compared any of these directly with older Levinson, Wadia, Accuphase, Rotel or Audio Note DACs? If so, why did you prefer the newer DACs? Straight detail and resolution capabilities?

Yes. First gen Linn Klimax DS bested ML 36 in head to head (ok, it was very close but the bigger soundstage and more things there won me over with similar level of slam, density and naturalness). This must have been back in 2009ish. Second gen Klimax DS bested Bricasti M1 in head to head (M1 just came out then and they were on gen 1 firmware and it sounded "digital" to me). I bought Linn both times.

I still have the second gen Klimax DS and later added a 3rd gen Akurate DS with Katalyst dac. I don't have the latest Klimax but if history is anything, it will retain the best of all the past Klimax with more analog sounding while increase detail and resolution and micro dynamics. Emm Labs dac2x and last gen (third gen? I lost track) Klimax DS is a toss up at this point. Emm Labs DA2 is the next step up from dac2x. Playback Designs is really a few of the Emm Labs engineers wanting to do their own things.

TBH, your purchase of Chord Dave is really puzzling if you like ML36 type of sound.

 

[littlej0e]

Yes. First gen Linn Klimax DS bested ML 36 in head to head (ok, it was very close but the bigger soundstage and more things there won me over with similar level of slam, density and naturalness). This must have been back in 2009ish. Second gen Klimax DS bested Bricasti M1 in head to head (M1 just came out then and they were on gen 1 firmware and it sounded "digital" to me). I bought Linn both times.

Congrats on finding your preference. Guess I’ll give Linn a look.

 

[littlej0e]

TBH, your purchase of Chord Dave is really puzzling if you like ML36 type of sound.

How do you think I figured out what kind of sound I like in the first place? Trial and error - through trying a bunch of different DACs. Not sure why or how that puzzles you.

What’s truly puzzling is your rather pretentious blanket assertion that my preferences are “incomplete” and the reason I seem to prefer the musicality and engagement of older and/or specific modern DACs is because I just haven’t tried enough modern DACs…even though I actually prefer a few modern DACs.

I mean, don’t get me wrong - I sincerely appreciate the feedback and recommendations, but damn, dude… Are you imagining yourself sitting on a throne while we have this conversation - haha?!?

 

[chesebert]

I generally assume people would try new things before they buy - shows, meets, dealers etc. I suppose it has become significantly more difficult to try new gear these days.

 

[Crashem]

These are just some of the DACs I’ve tried thus far:

- Wadia 9
- Wadia 25
- Wadia 27ix
- Levinson 30
- Levinson 30.6
- Levinson 36
- Schiit yggdrasil
- Schitt Modi Uber
- RME ADI-2
- Chord Dave
- Chord TT2
- Holo Spring 2
- Holo May KTE
- Soulution 560
- Soulution 760
- MSB Descrete
- MSB Select
- dCS Rossini
- dCS Bartok
- dCS Vivaldi
- Rockna Wavedream Signature
- CH Precision C1
- Trinity DAC
- Mola Mola Tambaqui

Honestly, I’m less concerned with hearing someone’s nose hair than I am actually enjoying music. There is no question that newer DACs are much more resolving and detailed. But from the perspective of accuracy, naturalness, musicality, texture and straight up musical engagement, there are the MSB Select, Trinity, Soulution 560/760, Wadia 25 (custom moded)/27ix, Levinson 30.6 and a handful of other 1704 chipped DACs I just tried. That’s it. Nothing else I’ve heard comes close to these DACs in terms of musical engagement. Regarding the old Wadias specifically, the dynamics are excellent as is the overall timbre and tone, though it does lean a bit warm. I suspect the “magic” I hear from this DAC is a special blend of 1702 goodness and proprietary digital filters. Have you actually tried any of these old high end Wadia DACs and compared them directly with newer DACs?!?

If so, would you please be kind enough to recommend another modern DAC that might be a better fit for my tastes?

Sounds like you should try Audio GD dac with the 8 pcm1704 chips. It has same basic concept as your wadia which is using multiple dac chips to get better overall performance while keeping the original chip’s sound. I bet you can find a used one on the cheap or the new one with all his updates is pretty reasonable.

As for modern dacs and musicality, I really love my Lampizator. Something about using tubes to bring the audio signal up to line level brings something special. Their newest engine is using some kind of ”secret” delta sigma chip. However they have some older engines use a r2r solution and their original dsd solution is “chipless.” I would say lampi‘s top end dacs are competitive with best in the world especially for those who prefer the “analog” sound. Highly recommend you listen to any lampi to see if you find the same magic I see. If so, they have great ecosystem.

btw, imo, at a certain point, chasing better currently used metrics like SNR etc. for a dac is a waste of time. One, we are well past the point that we can hear differences in SNR, for example, on most dacs. Two, the same metrics on upstream components in audio chain such as the amplifier are way worse.

 

[littlej0e]

Sounds like you should try Audio GD dac with the 8 pcm1704 chips. It has same basic concept as your wadia which is using multiple dac chips to get better overall performance while keeping the original chip’s sound. I bet you can find a used one on the cheap or the new one with all his updates is pretty reasonable.

That's it. I can't take anymore. I'm going to go find one of these... There is one for sale right now here on Head-Fi, but it's the two chip design. Too bad...

As for modern dacs and musicality, I really love my Lampizator. Something about using tubes to bring the audio signal up to line level brings something special. Their newest engine is using some kind of ”secret” delta sigma chip. However they have some older engines use a r2r solution and their original dsd solution is “chipless.” I would say lampi‘s top end dacs are competitive with best in the world especially for those who prefer the “analog” sound. Highly recommend you listen to any lampi to see if you find the same magic I see. If so, they have great ecosystem.

I've heard so many good things about the sound of the Lampizators and a couple bad things about the build quality. I obviously can't speak to either as I've never tried or owned one. That said, literally my only hesitation is tubes. I had a WA33 and absolutely loved it, but I ended up selling it because I didn't want to mess with tubes going forward. STOP TEMPTING ME BACK TO THE DARK SIDE!!! Guess it goes on the "try" list. Is there any particular model you recommend (guessing one of the R2Rs?!?)?

btw, imo, at a certain point, chasing better currently used metrics like SNR etc. for a dac is a waste of time. One, we are well past the point that we can hear differences in SNR, for example, on most dacs. Two, the same metrics on upstream components in audio chain such as the amplifier are way worse.

Preach!!! I mean, I get why some people cling to measurements as they are a referenceable, tangible, affirmation of sorts (though often cherry-picked and wildly inaccurate). I absolutely think measurements have their place, but I'll never understand why some people use them as the primary (or even secondary) decision making criteria when purchasing audio gear. For their ears. That they hear with. Where the music goes in...

Seems similar to mathematically comparing a Whopper with a Big Mac without actually tasting them. Instead, why not put a Big Mac in your mouth and just taste the damn thing? Do you like it? No?!? THEN TRY THE F$%&*ING WHOPPER...lol.

Regardless, thanks for all your input and recommendations. So much valuable information here.

 

[Gazza]

Great thread! I remember lusting after Wadia back when they were still in business. Their CD players looked like they were hewn from the same substance as the 2001 monolith.

As for a modern organic, musical DAC you might want to check out Aqua Acoustics. They specialise purely in source components and having recently upgraded to their La Scala Mk2 Optologic I must say it has impressed me with how full of life it sounds. Really organic, musical but still detailed and full of insight.

It uses a bespoke FPGA R2R ladder convertor that eschews filters with a hybrid JFET/tube output stage. It is 100% upgradable so if a MKIII becomes available you're not stuck having to sell it to fund the new model should the upgrade bug bite.

Will it give you the magic ala Wadia? Dunno, but it's the least digital sounding DAC I've ever heard and all I want to do is keep listening to music through it.

 

[nagi8404]

You are absolutely right. I use a usb to aes converter until my full reclocking setup arrives. Similar to @normie610, I don’t want to start a format war either, but it is clear to me that for the very best and most accurate sound you should always strive to match the original recording - not an altered or upsampled version of it at 44, 48, 88, 96 or 192. So, in theory, I guess that means putting a system together that can play DSD in it’s native format at it’s native bit rate would be the very best you could possibly achieve.


I also learned that the actual recording is everything. I can’t tell you how many 44.1 tracks in my library absolutely destroy 192 simply because they were recorded vastly better. I still tend to buy everything at 192 if I can, but this system is making me question whether or not that is the right approach.

I think older DACs really improve with better input source. USB is asynchronous so no clock information is present and will rely on the DAC's internal clock. But SPDIF/AES/Toslink signal carries clock signal, so a better source with cleaner clock signal should in theory increase sonic performance. I owned the older Sony DAS-R1 and Spectral SDR-2000 and they open up with a better source or when used in conjunction with their matching CD transports. A cheapo USB to SPDIF/AES converter works but nothing beats a clean source.

I chased a lot of Hi-Res material before and to be honest I couldn't tell the difference most of the time with regular red book FLACs. The quality of the recording and mastering is much more important than the format itself imho.

 

[littlej0e]

I think older DACs really improve with better input source. USB is asynchronous so no clock information is present and will rely on the DAC's internal clock. But SPDIF/AES/Toslink signal carries clock signal, so a better source with cleaner clock signal should in theory increase sonic performance. I owned the older Sony DAS-R1 and Spectral SDR-2000 and they open up with a better source or when used in conjunction with their matching CD transports. A cheapo USB to SPDIF/AES converter works but nothing beats a clean source.

I noticed something similar in my system, but I never assumed clocking would be the culprit. Makes sense though. I noticed more detail, resolution, and impact with 96kHz files from my streamer. But the 44.1kHz CD versions played from the transport sounded more "real" with a bit more accuracy and better (deeper) staging. Not bad for a 25 year old CD player lol. It seems significantly more testing is in order when my 270SE comes back from the repair shop. I keep going back and fourth on selling it as I assumed I'd be going full digital. Not so fast...

I can't wait to ditch this usb converter and get my proper mutec re-clocking setup in place. From what I understand, the difference will be stark.

I chased a lot of Hi-Res material before and to be honest I couldn't tell the difference most of the time with regular red book FLACs. The quality of the recording and mastering is much more important than the format itself imho.

I couldn't agree more. Recording and mastering seem to be (almost) everything. I'm also noticing high res can actually be detrimental in some cases. It can expose too much, especially with poorly R&M'd material, and completely wreck the experience of the music. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love high res when it works. But when it doesn't...it really doesn't. It seems some careful file curation and/or playlist engineering is in order and the only real way to combat this problem. Sigh. How exhausting...

 

[littlej0e]

Great thread! I remember lusting after Wadia back when they were still in business. Their CD players looked like they were hewn from the same substance as the 2001 monolith.

Ha!

As for a modern organic, musical DAC you might want to check out Aqua Acoustics. They specialise purely in source components and having recently upgraded to their La Scala Mk2 Optologic I must say it has impressed me with how full of life it sounds. Really organic, musical but still detailed and full of insight.

It’s amazing how many modern DACs have been recommended since I started this thread (I received a couple of PMs as well). In my mind, that means at least two things for certain:

1. Many of the best DACs that appear to suit my tastes are likely made by companies I’ve never heard of. I hate the audio industry - lol.
2. I am clearly not the only one with a preference for highly musical, addictive and life-like sound.

It uses a bespoke FPGA R2R ladder convertor that eschews filters with a hybrid JFET/tube output stage. It is 100% upgradable so if a MKIII becomes available you're not stuck having to sell it to fund the new model should the upgrade bug bite.

Will it give you the magic ala Wadia? Dunno, but it's the least digital sounding DAC I've ever heard and all I want to do is keep listening to music through it.

Now THIS is the ticket. Definitely going on the “must try” list - appreciate the recommendation!

I think there is a reason some live shows stick with you long after you’ve left the venue (or in some cases forever). It’s like some sort of bizarre imprint of energy burned into your mind that is so impactful your mind stores it without asking. In my opinion, the best albums, systems, and equipment provide a window into that energy. They have the power to reveal a circumstance, venue, crowd, studio, mood, instrument, artist or moment and transfer a small part of that energy if you let them. For the reasons @Miller already mentioned, I think that’s why I tend to prefer older music recorded as unified, or largely unprocessed, bits of energy. Heck of a thing, this music hobby…

 

[nagi8404]

I noticed something similar in my system, but I never assumed clocking would be the culprit. Makes sense though. I noticed more detail, resolution, and impact with 96kHz files from my streamer. But the 44.1kHz CD versions played from the transport sounded more "real" with a bit more accuracy and better (deeper) staging. Not bad for a 25 year old CD player lol. It seems significantly more testing is in order when my 270SE comes back from the repair shop. I keep going back and fourth on selling it as I assumed I'd be going full digital. Not so fast...

I can't wait to ditch this usb converter and get my proper mutec re-clocking setup in place. From what I understand, the difference will be stark.

I couldn't agree more. Recording and mastering seem to be (almost) everything. I'm also noticing high res can actually be detrimental in some cases. It can expose too much, especially with poorly R&M'd material, and completely wreck the experience of the music. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love high res when it works. But when it doesn't...it really doesn't. It seems some careful file curation and/or playlist engineering is in order and the only real way to combat this problem. Sigh. How exhausting...

Yeah now I'm a believer than redbook CD is all you need. I've got SACDs that sounded like garbage and CDs that sound super awesome. Now instead of worrying about the format I look forward to my favorite record label releasing new stuff.

Btw I also heard Wadias work best when fed with glass optical but I'm not sure. Wadia does have the glass optical interface. Can't wait for you to have 4x mutec reclockers in series slaved to a master clock generator

 

[littlej0e]

Yeah now I'm a believer than redbook CD is all you need. I've got SACDs that sounded like garbage and CDs that sound super awesome. Now instead of worrying about the format I look forward to my favorite record label releasing new stuff.

You are at least the fourth or fifth person to tell me this about SACDs. I was all pissy and looking to sell the 270SE because I wanted to go full digital, but mostly because the 270SE couldn’t play SACDs.

It is becoming increasingly clear the only thing better than the music coming from this Wadia setup is the people and knowledge surrounding it.

Btw I also heard Wadias work best when fed with glass optical but I'm not sure. Wadia does have the glass optical interface. Can't wait for you to have 4x mutec reclockers in series slaved to a master clock generator

Yes indeed! The DAC and CD player have a proprietary “clock link” setup via old-school glass between them. I thought, “pft…right… another BS marketing gimmick.” I was very, very wrong Never in my life have I heard redbook sound this good! Holy moly! All because of proper clocking and jitter reduction…

You aren’t wrong about the mutecs either - haha. I have a REF10 SE120 and MC-3+ USB coming with custom power supply upgrades (the fine gentlemen who upgrades old Wadias also does clocking upgrades). Speaking of upgrades, I’ll have to say goodbye to the 27ix very soon as I’m shipping it across the Atlantic for a full system, component, and power upgrade. When this thing returns, I fully expect it to minimally trail, equal, or crush just about anything else out there save for the absolute TOTL of TOTL.

 

[Gazza]

Ha!

It’s amazing how many modern DACs have been recommended since I started this thread (I received a couple of PMs as well). In my mind, that means at least two things for certain:

1. Many of the best DACs that appear to suit my tastes are likely made by companies I’ve never heard of. I hate the audio industry - lol.
2. I am clearly not the only one with a preference for highly musical, addictive and life-like sound.

Now THIS is the ticket. Definitely going on the “must try” list - appreciate the recommendation!

I think there is a reason some live shows stick with you long after you’ve left the venue (or in some cases forever). It’s like some sort of bizarre imprint of energy burned into your mind that is so impactful your mind stores it without asking. In my opinion, the best albums, systems, and equipment provide a window into that energy. They have the power to reveal a circumstance, venue, crowd, studio, mood, instrument, artist or moment and transfer a small part of that energy if you let them. For the reasons @Miller already mentioned, I think that’s why I tend to prefer older music recorded as unified, or largely unprocessed, bits of energy. Heck of a thing, this music hobby…

Nice, glad it's piqued your interest. I will say while the sound is analog (not artificial as I've found with every other digital source up to now) it is not "warm." This was shocking to me as I expected the valve output to colour the sound. If anything the Aqua is starkly neutral, imposing very little character of its own and simply letting the music speak for itself, whether good or bad. It will tell you EXACTLY what's on a particular recording and won't hide any flaws. What I found is that it exposes compressed, less than stellar recordings for what they are while giving good ones the space they need to truely shine.

Does it make badly mastered albums unlistenable? Not at all (I listen to a lot of awfully mixed/mastered metal albums), rather it shows just how much difference there are between records and exposes the homogenisation other sources impose on the music. Truth, musical or otherwise, can sometimes be illusive to pin-down but I feel like the La Scala delivers it with aplomb. Just don't expect it to apologise for weak recordings or for equipment downstream that isn't up to snuff. Romantic it is not.