[Asteron70]

I had the HD800S/V281 setup for a long time, and it was just amazing. I suspect though the V281 is a better match for the LCD3 than it is for the HD800S.
In hindsight, I would recommend a tube amp (such as the WA22) for the HD800S.

The one major gripe I have with the V281 is that the MAGIC out of the XLR out is not matched in the SE out. It HAS TO be in balanced mode to sound like itself. It only has 1 XLR, and 2SE. Why not the other way around??

WB

 

[zhgutov]

Another nice, two XLR out on Senn.

V281 has four amplifiers for single 4-pin XLR output. Does Senn have eight amplifiers to drive two XLR outputs?
SE outputs in V281 use outputs from different amplifiers (but they are the same amplifiers, which used to drive XLR output).
In this case the left output is out of phase, and the right output is in phase by default.
You can switch SE/TRS outputs to balanced mode with the jumpers inside the amp.
In this case you can connect the headphones in balanced mode with the corresponding cables to TRS sockets.
See manual for details.

There is interesting thing which may affect the comparison when both headphones are driven simultaneously.
According to my experience, LCD-3 may be affected by reflections of the room when the playback volume is high.
This may happen when you have reflective room, and this will at least reduce detail, making the sound "cheaper".
This may be your case too, when you compare two open headphones, which may affect each other.

The one major gripe I have with the V281 is that the MAGIC out of the XLR out is not matched in the SE out.

Actually, I think you can minimize the difference for some/most headphones.
SE outputs (on any amplifier) have one major drawback. When you have 3-wire connection, the impedance of the cable (common wire) will increase the crosstalk.
For example, I have relatively cheap Shure SRH840. The stock cable has 1.5-2 Ohm on the common wire.
This increases the crosstalk to -25 dB (!). When I changed the cable to something like 0.1 Ohm on the common wire (thick cable) the crosstalk reduced to -60 dB for one channel.
Another channel shill has -50 dB crosstalk, because of internal connections of the headphones, but this is not bad already.
The crosstalk increased to such levels (-25..-35 dB) may lead to more harsh sound (especially in the areas where the headphones itself have some problems).
For Shure SRH840 this is 6-7 kHz area. But finally, after changing the cable, the overall transparency is increased too.
I think this is especially important with the "true to source amps", which have no added smooth, liquid, pleasant layer or some other kind of coloration.

 

[BLacklWf]

Wow Guys,

I’m several days into the LCD-3 and they are magnificent. I’m really enjoying them. It’s a tough call as I keep going back and forth between the Senn 800S. There are times I’m rooting for the 800S and then back to LCD-3. The bass on the LCD-3 is awesome. No matter how loud I go it’s in total control. At times I like the bit more forward vocal on 800s.

...

Just wondering. Did LCD-3 come with the balanced cables like good old days?

 

[Fegefeuer]

Ah, the old "is the V281 warm?" debate at the earlier parts of this thread.

I used to think it was warmish neutral but after having it for a while and having tested it with a couple of DACs (Hugo 2 and Hugo TT), I have to say that the V281 never got close to warm, or at least to what I define as being warm. It's weird because I used to think it had a hint of warmth but now I think the V281 just adds more weight to everything, I would call it weighty rather than warm if that makes any sense.

That's a great description which matches mine. I never understood the warm part of how people perceive the V281. Maybe in comparison with strident treble of the Ragnarok, BHA-1 and a few others (all with HD 800).

 

[BLacklWf]

I only received v281 Tuesday and only used SE outs (my balanced cables are on their way). As the person who is not used to v281 sound, I feel the amp is neutral and yet very well extended to both ends. With SE outs, I feel there is just a hint of warmness. But, my reference point is KSE1500 which I think is a bit analytical. So, I agree with others that perhaps the rest of TOTL are on the cold side? I have not yet heard anything absolutely neutral by the way. It's always either analytical or warm. V281 is by far the perfect on the balance scale when it comes to neutral-ness for me.

However, I won't call it a natural sounding amp. My point is that I have never heard a natural sounding amp or dac or headphone yet. Every equipment has its own sounding. With that in mind, v281 comes to so far what I consider as having one of the best equipment sounding even at this very early break-in process. It's almost dead neutral with maybe just a hint of warmness? I'm sure it will sound even better with the balanced out.

 

[Diehard9er]

I only received v281 Tuesday and only used SE outs (my balanced cables are on their way). As the person who is not used to v281 sound, I feel the amp is neutral and yet very well extended to both ends. With SE outs, I feel there is just a hint of warmness. But, my reference point is KSE1500 which I think is a bit analytical. So, I agree with others that perhaps the rest of TOTL are on the cold side? I have not yet heard anything absolutely neutral by the way. It's always either analytical or warm. V281 is by far the perfect on the balance scale when it comes to neutral-ness for me.

However, I won't call it a natural sounding amp. My point is that I have never heard a natural sounding amp or dac or headphone yet. Every equipment has its own sounding. With that in mind, v281 comes to so far what I consider as having one of the best equipment sounding even at this very early break-in process. It's almost dead neutral with maybe just a hint of warmness? I'm sure it will sound even better with the balanced out.

Good to know your early impressions.

Mine is on UPS truck for delivery today. UPS here locally sometimes does not come until 8PM. That will probably be my luck today.

Looking forward to getting it set-up tonight. I don't think I will try any compares for the first week. Just enjoy for now then perhaps I can try a more detailed compare to the Senn HDVA 600.

To answer your question about XLR cable with LCD-3. No XLR version with cans. The SE that came with it was also a little short for where my listening chair is. I ordered and received the Silver Dragon XLR from Moon. A little pricey but oh well.

 

[BLacklWf]

Good to know your early impressions.

Mine is on UPS truck for delivery today. UPS here locally sometimes does not come until 8PM. That will probably be my luck today.

Looking forward to getting it set-up tonight. I don't think I will try any compares for the first week. Just enjoy for now then perhaps I can try a more detailed compare to the Senn HDVA 600.

To answer your question about XLR cable with LCD-3. No XLR version with cans. The SE that came with it was also a little short for where my listening chair is. I ordered and received the Silver Dragon XLR from Moon. A little pricey but oh well.

I ordered Black Dragon XLR from Moon. Like you said, a little pricey but oh well..

By the way, you may be tempted to play with the pre-gains. For me, I thought the default set up was the best. I tried -6db and -12db and I felt as if both altered the impedance of the input signal which I didn't like.

 

[Pharmaboy]

I ordered Black Dragon XLR from Moon. Like you said, a little pricey but oh well..

By the way, you may be tempted to play with the pre-gains. For me, I thought the default set up was the best. I tried -6db and -12db and I felt as if both altered the impedance of the input signal which I didn't like.

I think you'll both like balanced once you hear it from the V281--and once the units are fully burned in, if purchased new (I know that's controversial sometimes, but I've found it to have significant benefits on occasion).

Re pre-gain, I'm one of those that was compelled to adjust it downward. Set at unity gain, the V281 simply overpowered my dynamic headphones (though not the planar Ori); and as a preamp, it also overpowered my powered monitors (Zenpro modded Yamaha HS7s + SVS subwoofer). The effect in both cases was the dreaded "not enough volume knob" syndrome, with all listening being done from ~7:30 to 8:30 on the dial. The practical effect of that was that too few of those steps on the potentiometer were available for adjusting volume.

After dropping the gain significantly, both in headphone outs & pre-outs, I heard nothing negative in the quality of sound. But I did gain a more of that volume knob for practical, day-to-day volume adjusting.

 

[BLacklWf]

I think you'll both like balanced once you hear it from the V281--and once the units are fully burned in, if purchased new (I know that's controversial sometimes, but I've found it to have significant benefits on occasion).

Re pre-gain, I'm one of those that was compelled to adjust it downward. Set at unity gain, the V281 simply overpowered my dynamic headphones (though not the planar Ori); and as a preamp, it also overpowered my powered monitors (Zenpro modded Yamaha HS7s + SVS subwoofer). The effect in both cases was the dreaded "not enough volume knob" syndrome, with all listening being done from ~7:30 to 8:30 on the dial. The practical effect of that was that too few of those steps on the potentiometer were available for adjusting volume.

After dropping the gain significantly, both in headphone outs & pre-outs, I heard nothing negative in the quality of sound. But I did gain a more of that volume knob for practical, day-to-day volume adjusting.

Your source signal must been HOT that reducing pre-gain reduced volume as well as matched the impedance. For me, my input signals were OK volume wise that my normal listening was round 10pm - 11pm position. Still I wanted to make it 12pm position by reducing pre-gain. For me, not only it reduced the volume but sounds became noticeably softer indicating impedance changed as well. My source signal must been too weak.

I also believe in burn-in, and I have a sense v281 will require a tremendous amount of burn-in right?

 

[Pharmaboy]

Your source signal must been HOT that reducing pre-gain reduced volume as well as matched the impedance. For me, my input signals were OK volume wise that my normal listening was round 10pm - 11pm position. Still I wanted to make it 12pm position by reducing pre-gain. For me, not only it reduced the volume but sounds became noticeably softer indicating impedance changed as well. My source signal must been too weak.

I also believe in burn-in, and I have a sense v281 will require a tremendous amount of burn-in right?

Gain matching is apparently an art, not a science:

• I experienced none of the negative effects of gain reduction on the V281 that you mention (either via headphones or pre-out).
• I suspect this may be correct: "My source signal must been too weak."

My DAC outputs 2.5 volts via RCA outs. That's well within the expected range (some DACs go as high as 4.0 volts out).

 

[Pharmaboy]

Your source signal must been HOT that reducing pre-gain reduced volume as well as matched the impedance. For me, my input signals were OK volume wise that my normal listening was round 10pm - 11pm position. Still I wanted to make it 12pm position by reducing pre-gain. For me, not only it reduced the volume but sounds became noticeably softer indicating impedance changed as well. My source signal must been too weak.

I also believe in burn-in, and I have a sense v281 will require a tremendous amount of burn-in right?

Forgot to answer question about burn-in. I purchased my V281 used, so burn-in was not an issue. However, my experiences with it on headphones and other electronics, especially DACs, is that burn-in never hurts & sometimes helps a lot (ie, sound changes significantly, always for the better, after ~100-150 hrs continuous burn-in).

Both my Audio GD DACs (NOS 19; DAC-19) didn't really stop changing sonically until ~400 - 500 hrs of use. That may seen crazy, but a number of users on the DAC-19 thread mentioned this, and they were right.

 

[zhgutov]

sounds became noticeably softer indicating impedance changed as well

Where do you think impedance is changing?

 

[BLacklWf]

Well said!

Gain matching is apparently an art, not a science:

My source out must been under 2 volts and reducing pre-gain must have dipped it further. Need to save for a new DAC.

 

[BLacklWf]

Where do you think impedance is changing?

Not an exact science, but when the overall sounds (especially bass) becomes softer, I take it a good sign the source signal gain is too weak. It may not apply if your source has enough gain.

 

[novicez1]

Your source signal must been HOT that reducing pre-gain reduced volume as well as matched the impedance. For me, my input signals were OK volume wise that my normal listening was round 10pm - 11pm position. Still I wanted to make it 12pm position by reducing pre-gain. For me, not only it reduced the volume but sounds became noticeably softer indicating impedance changed as well. My source signal must been too weak.

I also believe in burn-in, and I have a sense v281 will require a tremendous amount of burn-in right?

No, The amp has no moving components and as such no burn in is required.