[markl]

Is this the thread where we're discussing the W2002's bass response? I've lost track.

I've just had an epiphany about the the bass response of these headphones. I think I've reacted so positively to the w2002's bass not because it goes so incredibly low, although it is as low as any other good headphone I've heard, but because of the way my ears react to the actual physical feeling of the bass. The W2002 provides a sort of "ear massage" with the ultra smooth and effortless, yet energetic bass. The way it resonates is very stimulating and pleasing to the ear. It's quite pleasant, actually.

All this has made me speculate about the true purpose and function of the DADS system. So, its basically an enclosure behind the diaphragm. I suspect this enclosure is trapping air in some manner and releasing it in a very specific way to create the feeling of impact. This is my theory at least. This adds to the "stimulation" of the ears *as if* they were reacting to *real* low bass sound waves in the open air.

Remember when I said that the R10 is the "Disappearing Headphone", because of the extreme comfort of the phone combined with the "invisibility" of the drivers? Well, I'd say the W2002 goes in the opposite direction and is a very stimulating headphone with a powerful driver closer to the ear than in the R10. Combine that with DADS system, and--pow! impactful, stimulating, present, bass.

Maybe DADS system is sort of like those weird discs they hawk in HT mags that sit in your chair and vibrate in tune with the bass, so you get more of the bass feeling. I'm not saying DADS is that cheesy, because I actually like the effect and really enjoy my bass-heavy CDs with the W2002.

But for other music where you want to just close your eyes and disappear into the sound, they're not as good as R10.

Thoughts?

markl

 

[M Rael]

I think that was my favorite post from you about the W2002 markl. Very thought provoking. I tried in vain (and in vanity) to describe the bass of the W2002 in my initial impression review.. and I never hooked on to a convincing analogy. I'm not any more convinced of your 'magic fingers' analogy, but your heart was in the right place!
Yes! I really like that you've tackled this subject. Heres what I'm going to do: Vincent is supposed to be sending me a schematic of the W2002's construction, ok, so when it gets here I will take my pair apart and we'll at least have some good physical idea about the enclosure details. And dont even think about suggesting I use a butterknife on them! (newbies: old Grado reference)

I agree with your ear massage theory, and how that ties in with what you said about giving one the impression (or one less, if you subtract Ross) of hearing real low bass waves in the open air. (I'm just teasing Ross a little.. for chrissake, nobody have a cow.) Anyway, I need to think about what you put forward there markl.. very interesting! I'll go bass-out here after dinner and come back with some feedback.

p.s. they call a thread 'a thread' because the topics are about as strong and durable as a thread. At least around here! (just kidding. again.)

 

[JML]

KurtW, please tell me that your measurements show the V-6 curve is depressed broadly in the midrange after that bass plateau comes down to zero (esp. the upper-mids, for about 3-5 dB) and then peaks at about 7.5 to 8KHz (3-5 dB).

 

[kelly]

Very nice descriptions, markl. I don't think I could be more curious.

I was talking with someone else recently about the trade off between deep bass extension and quick tight bass response... and lamenting the fact that they are almost mutually exclusive. Both the Corda HA-1 and the DT831s are awesome at doing tight clean bass but neither go as deep as I'd like.

My concern, of course, was that from the descriptions, it sounded as if the choice that was made with the W2002 was on the side of tight and clean as opposed to deep. Now it sounds like there may be a substitution for depth in resonance and that might be interesting at least.

I'm surprised by your findings about he V6, Kurt. I don't doubt you, you certainly argue a good point. It's just that I know when I listen to music... real music, live accoustic instruments for example, there is real bass that is just altogether missing from headphones that show up in my speakers. Now it is possible that my speakers are a little hot in the bass too, in fact, I'm sure they are, but that's quite a boost you're describing and to be honest, to me, the V6's still don't get all the way there. So maybe some of what's there is boosted and I didn't notice as much because I was getting some of what's just altogether missing everywhere else--and *still* not deep enough.

I'm not asking for sub-audible stuff here, just give me the 20-20k that everyone promises.

 

[markl]

Sorry, I lost track, Kelly. Did you order the W2002?

I know you were pondering the RKV, which i just don't think is right for these phones especially for someone so concerned with bass. My Melos has a ".5 ohm" headphone jack, so its really able to deliver the bass through these things. Something to ponder.


markl

 

[Spad]

Kelly,

Do you have reservations about the performance of your Corda HA-1 with the 2002s? I've tried several low impedance phones--all the way down to 16 ohms--with it, and the Corda has handled them very well. The 27 ohm Ety 4Ps really shine.

Personally, I'll be very surprised it the 2002/HA-1 doesn't prove to be a first rate combination.

Hey, check out the that avatar that Mark gave me. And just think how prissy I'll be when I actually get the ATs!

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spad Hey, check out the that avatar that Mark gave me.

Gave? Who said anything about gave? Re-read that fine print pal.

Since this is the W2002 bass/amp thread, I might as well say I did the deal and am getting a Wheatfield HA1 for sure. And as part of that deal my ex-325's are finding a happy new home. I'm also expecting the blessed HeadRoom Little More Power amp that they sent 1 day later than they promised, tomorrow. That one will be for comparison purposes.

Markl I didnt hear anything to add to your great comments about the low frequency thing. That was a good epiphany of you (of yours?...)

 

[KurtW]

JML, what I measured on the V6 is a very mild dip (1.5dB)at 1250-1600 Hz and a peak of 4.5 dB at 3150 rising to 8 dB at 5 kHz, then falling rapidly after that. By the way I only measured one channel.

Kelly, headphones that are flat to 0 Hz aren't going to have the same impact that speakers have. In another thread you mention the NHT speakers you have. I have the NHT 3.3 and the bass that you can feel in your whole body is an experience that's just not going to be duplicated in any headphone. With the W2002 I do get a bit of that "ear massage" business that Markl mentions, but I'm missing the discreet notes in the bass lines of "Road to Ensenada" that come across with the V6 (no wonder with the big bass boost) or the 3.3s or my other subs. I'm becoming more and more convinced that short of equalization there is no way to get both flat and extended bass in a headphone. When you think about the wavelength of a low bass note being around 20+ feet, it's kinda amazing you get any bass at all in any headphone.

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by M Rael Gave? Who said anything about gave? Re-read that fine print pal.

You can't bring me down now. Ross just emailed my tracking number.

Man, if I had a longer cable I'd be struttin'!

 

[KurtW]

Well, I guess this is the bass thread now, but it started out being acidtripwow's first impressions. Any futher impressions, acid?

 

[kelly]

markl,

The W2002 was ordered through Vincent - it should ship Monday of next week and according to Vincent was his last one. I agreed to buy Vertigo's RKV amp the moment I got hold of him after he posted it--I've no intention to renig on the purchase but don't expect to receive it for a couple of weeks.

I understand that the output impedance of the RKV amp is not well suited for below 100ohm impedance headphones and that it will have a higher noise floor as a result. I've posted in the other area about possibly doing an adapter (ala Jan Meier's site) but I'm a little lacking in the expertise.

I expect that if the W2002 turns out to be the headphone for me (that's a big enough if) and the RKV truly can't be tamed that I'll be looking to acquire another amp like the Melos or the ZOTL. My curiosity was high about the RKV and I'm not yet settled on a headphone, so I had to at least try it and I'd rather experiment than just accept blindly that the W2002 cannot be made to sound good with the RKV.

spad,

The Corda HA-1 is a fine amp for what it is. It is a solid state amp that is small enough for me to carry with me to work. It was never meant to be THE amp for me and I'd imagined from the start that I'd acquire a good tube headphone amp at some point. I didn't care for the MG Head so my interests now lean more toward the RKV, the Melos and the ZOTL, each with their own unique attractions and disclaimers.

Kurt,

I don't expect to get the sub-audible bass "feel" from headphones that I get with the NHTs. Good deal on the 3.3s, btw--I knew all along you were a man of taste. And I do understand the mechanics of producing impossibly deep bass in a headphone. I guess what I expect/look for and never find is (and the audiophiles cringe in horror) some kind of transformation of those bottom notes so that they aren't just missing. Fine, you can't give me 20hz--what can you give me instead? If the best you can do is 32hz, give me a 32hz note. Don't just leave it out altogether. And if I can get some kind of added effect like Markl described, hey, that could be nice too.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtW I'm becoming more and more convinced that short of equalization there is no way to get both flat and extended bass in a headphone. When you think about the wavelength of a low bass note being around 20+ feet, it's kinda amazing you get any bass at all in any headphone.

Joooin us!!

 

[KurtW]

My statement doesn't necessarily condone the evils of equalization!

On the other hand, used sparingly it has had sucessful applications.

 

[bootman]

Have any W-2002 owners considered contacting Headroom to see if they would measure their cans?

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by bootman Have any W-2002 owners considered contacting Headroom to see if they would measure their cans?

Hi Bootman. Well I'm going to talk to them soon, one way or the other, because I will have tried their Little More Power amp and have decided what to do with it. When I do I will give Tyll (pronounced 'tile', though I still prefer 'till') the web address of my little site, and bend his ear about the W2002 in general. Perhaps at that point he will agree to test the W2002 just to be rid of me. Lets hope so.