[kelly]

If we had this to do over again, MRael could have made some kind of deal to buy n number of headphones over x period of time at y percentage off and made a few bucks off his work.

Ride it out, Mark, register a domain name and order some of the other obscure headphones, print the specs, translate some reviews and resell them. Maybe call it... the Audio-Technica Raelway.

 

[KurtW]

First off, a disclaimer: frequency response measurements are somewhat difficult to do and thus have inaccuracies of varying degrees. I've tried to minimize this somewhat by measuring four different headphones with the same setup, so that at least some useful information about how they differ can be observed. Also, they is a lot of stuff that determines how something will sound besides frequency response.

I made some frequency response measurements, for what its worth, of the Senn 580, Sony V6, K501 and W2002. In terms of the very low end, the 580 and W2002 were fairly close to each other. The W2002 was about 2 dB stronger in the 40 to 80 Hz area relative to 1000 Hz. They were both 10 dB down at 31.5 Hz. The AKG 501 was weaker, as expected. The Sony V6 had a 10 dB boost broadly centered around 80 Hz. It was still up 4 dB at 31.5 Hz.

Another thing that stood out is that the W2002 had a bit of a dip in the 200 to 500 Hz range. I'll try to publish the curves sometime later, since it's late now. I'll also explain my measurement techniques.

 

[M Rael]

Spad: I have a Cannon S10. Just a basic camera.

Kelly: I'll take it under advisement.

KurtW: After Chinese New Year I'll ask Vincent to obtain a frequency response curve from audio-technica. Your finding of the W2002's being 10db down at 31Hz doesnt seem at all right to me. If worse comes to worse Neruda mentioned that HeadRoom will test and generate a FR curve for headphones you send them. If we're going to be striving to see a curve, lets at least do it right, and with professional equipment. I'm curious to see it too!

 

[Spad]

First let me say that I'm winging this, and I don't want to appear more knowledgeable on this subject than I am. (Oh, and I ain't as dumb as I look, neither.) But it seems to me that a closed phone such as the W2002 can't be measured in the same manner as an open phone such as the HD580.

Add in any proprietary design features, such as AT's DADS, and common measurement criteria could be rendered meaningless, or nearly so.

My understanding is that a closed design must, in fact, *be* closed to function properly, somewhat like an acoustical suspension speaker system. In this case, the obvious missing element required to close the phone is the human head.

OTOH, an open headphone is designed somewhat like a vented system and the seal supplied by the head could be of little or no importance.

Another consideration should be the driver placement. As M Rael pointed out, the W2002's drivers sit forward of the ear canal and are canted toward the outer ear. Since this places the driver off-axis to the ear's opening which implies a marked roll-off of higher frequencies (which are demonstrably *not* rolled-off), we must assume that AT has tailored the driver response curves to effectively compensate for both the angle and the affect of the outer ear.

Removing the influence of the outer ear when measuring frequency response by simply holding an SPL meter in a similar location with both phones could give a wildly erroneous result. If the frequency response of the W2002 were perfectly flat when so measured, I would venture that it would be completely unbearable to most of us.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Um, using acoustic couplers is standard practice when measuring headphone frequency response... we'll see if KurtW did that when he publishes his methodology...

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spad My understanding is that a closed design must, in fact, *be* closed to function properly, somewhat like an acoustical suspension speaker system. In this case, the obvious missing element required to close the phone is the human head.

M Rael has shown to be such an enthusiast of these headphones that I'm sure he'd be willing to sacrifice his gigantic skull for the cause. We could scoop out the insides and take the measurements from there. This would also bring him closer in spirit and in form to both Kurt Cobain and various Enron execs.

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly M Rael has shown to be such an enthusiast of these headphones that I'm sure he'd be willing to sacrifice his gigantic skull for the cause. We could scoop out the insides and take the measurements from there. This would also bring him closer in spirit and in form to both Kurt Cobain and various Enron execs.

Hey!!

(laughing)

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly M Rael has shown to be such an enthusiast of these headphones that I'm sure he'd be willing to sacrifice his gigantic skull for the cause. We could scoop out the insides and take the measurements from there. This would also bring him closer in spirit and in form to both Kurt Cobain and various Enron execs.

I dunno, Kelly. From what some are saying he does with them headphones, I'm not sure I'd trust his measurements. You know how boys do tend to exaggerate these things. 'Course I don't believe for a minute that there's anything sexual a goin' on. But then again, them are lambskin cushions ain't they, and we all know where lambskin comes from. And, if I do recollect rightly, he also called them "orgasmic." The evidence is a mountin'.

 

[M Rael]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spad The evidence is a mountin'.

Dont use the word 'mounting'; it will only make me horny again for my W2002's.

 

[acidtripwow]

Is anybody using the 2002s with a Melos SHA-1 amp? How's the combination?

 

[markl]

I'm using mine with the SHA-Gold, and the combo is great.

markl

 

[acidtripwow]

Thanks Markl, I'm thinking of tracking one down and trying it.

 

[KurtW]

Here's a quick description of my test setup for headphone frequency response. Perhaps I can post some pictures later if anyone is interested. I have a 4X5" block of fairly stiff foam about 2.5" thick, and the headphone ear piece sits flat against the large surface, creating a seal. Inside the area centered around the headphone ear piece is a funnel shaped hole, 2" in diameter at the outside and around 3/4" at the inside, about 1.5" deep total. This hole is larger than an ear cavity, but I thought it was better to have it too large rather than too small. No attempt was made to make it look like an ear cavity, it's just a round, funnel shaped hole. A Radio Shack SPL meter's mic is inserted from the other side of the foam, with the mic element flush with the bottom of the hole. The foam provides a good seal around the mic. The headphone is fed 1/3 octave sine wave tones from a Neutrik signal generator through an amp with flat frequency response. The amp I used this time was the Sudgen Headmaster. The level was calibrated at 1 kHz at 80 dB SPL, C weighting, on the RS meter.

One thing I didn't take into account when I posted some data late last night was the C weighting deviation from flat response. C weighting is down 3 dB at 31.5 Hz and 8 KHz. When I publish the curves I can factor in the error caused by the C weighting. The RS meter only has either C or A weighting, there is no option for no weighting factors. The A weighting is even more drastic.

With the C weighting errors corrected, I measure the W2002, realitive to 1 kHz, + 2dB from 100 to 65 Hz, flat at 50 Hz, -4 at 40, -7 at 31.5 and -8.5 at 25. I would say this is excellent performance. Good subwoofers can do the really low stuff better, but in turn suffer from erratic response due to room interactions.

I've been guilty of comparing bass performance of various headphones to the Sony V6, which reproduces 31.5 Hz much stronger than anything I've heard. Now, let the truth be told, the Sony V6 is a CHEATER!

The V6, after correction, is up 2dB at 20 Hz, which is pretty amazing, but it's also up around 10 dB from 125 Hz to 40 Hz. I've always felt that V6 was heavy in the bass area to a fault, but admit that on certain material it can be seductive.

 

[Spad]

Thanks for explaining the methodology, Kurt. Man, you're nice to have around. And particular thanks for the information on that "legendary" bass response of the V6.

 

[M Rael]

Its interesting that the man who used to build Wheatfield amps tried a design (the HA-4) using the ideas of John Sunier in terms of shaping the frequency response to make headphones more natural. If you've ever seen a picture of the HA-4, you know it has some EQ functions available- and they were put there specifically in cooperation with Suniers concepts.
It sounds like the V6 has bass boost, just as the Sunier curve suggests is good for headphones, and I happen to agree with John Sunier about his EQ ideas. But I'm not sure I personally want the headphones themselves to apply the curve. I dont want the recording to apply it either. Thats why I use an equalizer. I really have to try those V6's though! I bet they would make even Kelly's 'Nirvana Tribute Band' sound killer.