[evanescent]

I've picked up a Vali 2 and bunch of tubes. Also a Magni to compare it to a solid state benchmark.

I set up a mixing deck that let me switch between the two amplifiers, including switching individual channels. Like Schiit's own blind test experiments, and a few others who've written here, I found the differences barely perceptible. That's after rolling through around a dozen different tubes such as 6CG7's, E88CCs, 6BQ7As from Genalex, Mullard, Amperex and Brimar and even a WE396A. The differences are there - and they are very visible using frequency analysis software - but they are very subtle to my hearing. Frequency analysis shows the Vali and the cleanest tubes have a massive amount of noise compared to the Magni, but it's not perceptible to me on any of my headphones.

To help me appreciate tube differences, I'd like to a really bad or strange sounding tube, or a few of them for comparison. No one markets their ebay offerings that way! And the local audio stores weren't keen on passing on dud tubes.

Would anyone have suggestions on how to get some truly bad or strange sounding tubes to roll through my Vali 2?

 

[Mr Trev]

I've picked up a Vali 2 and bunch of tubes. Also a Magni to compare it to a solid state benchmark.

I set up a mixing deck that let me switch between the two amplifiers, including switching individual channels. Like Schiit's own blind test experiments, and a few others who've written here, I found the differences barely perceptible. That's after rolling through around a dozen different tubes such as 6CG7's, E88CCs, 6BQ7As from Genalex, Mullard, Amperex and Brimar and even a WE396A. The differences are there - and they are very visible using frequency analysis software - but they are very subtle to my hearing. Frequency analysis shows the Vali and the cleanest tubes have a massive amount of noise compared to the Magni, but it's not perceptible to me on any of my headphones.

To help me appreciate tube differences, I'd like to a really bad or strange sounding tube, or a few of them for comparison. No one markets their ebay offerings that way! And the local audio stores weren't keen on passing on dud tubes.

Would anyone have suggestions on how to get some truly bad or strange sounding tubes to roll through my Vali 2?

If you go by what @bcowen claims, all you need to do is buy GE and Philips ECG tubes. You'll be all set for bad.

The only GE I have is a 5670, quite bright. I do have a ECG 6dj8, pretty meh.

 

[bcowen]

If you go by what @bcowen claims, all you need to do is buy GE and Philips ECG tubes. You'll be all set for bad.

The only GE I have is a 5670, quite bright. I do have a ECG 6dj8, pretty meh.

I find most GE tubes to suffer from either a case of meh (bland, boring, lifeless, and about as musical as a clump of dirt), or shrill and fatiguing with no bass. Usually one or the other, but one day I'm sure I'll hear one that has both traits. Philips ECG's, OTOH, are downright nasty, unless of course you like harsh, grating, spitty sound that makes you wish you'd bought a solid state amp. Any 6SN7, 6922, or 5814 (12AU7 variant) with the blue print are good examples.

 

[evanescent]

@mrtrev, @bcowen You seem to be pointing me to tube makes that aren't to your taste. That's not really what I had in mind, although I appreciate you must have been disappointed by your experiences. The Philips ECGs are also listed on ebay at $50 a piece, so someone likes them.

I'd like to get hold of individual tubes that have clearer faults like very strong 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th harmonics, high distortion, high noise or massive gaps/ spikes in frequency response. Target price is free + shipping.

 

[bcowen]

@mrtrev, @bcowen The Philips ECGs are also listed on ebay at $50 a piece, so someone likes them.

Yes, people that don't know any better. Some equate "vintage" and "NOS" with desirable, even when they're not.

I'd like to get hold of individual tubes that have clearer faults like very strong 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th harmonics, high distortion, high noise or massive gaps/ spikes in frequency response. Target price is free + shipping.

Tubes with such aberrations were very likely thrown away 50 or 60 years ago.

 

[Mr Trev]

@bcowen

So following this current discussion, how much difference do you find between tubes? (considering you can pull yourself away from your fancy Paladin amp and even use the lowly V2 now)? @evanescent experience isn't the first time I've read that. Ages ago I remember somebody here got 2 Vali2s, built a switching mechanism to compare different tubes OTF and basically couldn't tell a difference. Barring that ECG, I know I'd never be able to differentiate my 6dj8s. I can hear a difference switching types of tubes, but really nothing if I keep it in the family. I'm assuming that a lot of this is due to Schiit using negative feedback in the amp.
Maybe we need to start nagging @Paladin79 to build a hybrid along the same lines as his other amp?

Cheers

 

[Paladin79]

@bcowen

So following this current discussion, how much difference do you find between tubes? (considering you can pull yourself away from your fancy Paladin amp and even use the lowly V2 now)? @evanescent experience isn't the first time I've read that. Ages ago I remember somebody here got 2 Vali2s, built a switching mechanism to compare different tubes OTF and basically couldn't tell a difference. Barring that ECG, I know I'd never be able to differentiate my 6dj8s. I can hear a difference switching types of tubes, but really nothing if I keep it in the family. I'm assuming that a lot of this is due to Schiit using negative feedback in the amp.
Maybe we need to start nagging @Paladin79 to build a hybrid along the same lines as his other amp?

Cheers

Hybrid did you say??? Could I not just go in for a root canal instead?

 

[Mr Trev]

Hybrid did you say??? Could I not just go in for a root canal instead?

Awwww, c'mon! I'll be your friend!

Since none of my cans are remotely high impedance enough to use an OTL amp, finding a hybrid that showcases the 6sn7 like your amp does would be ideal (nevermind the fact most hybrids don't even use octal tubes).
But fine, if you're that set against hybrid, make mine OTC.

Another question for anybody who wants to answer…
I wasn't around during the golden age of tubes (or even pre-Solid State for that matter). Was tube rolling a even a thing back then? Did somebody like Mullard market their tubes as " Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions." <quote from Brent Jesse>. Or did folks simply regard them like light-bulbs and you just bought whatever was available?

 

[Paladin79]

Awwww, c'mon! I'll be your friend!

Since none of my cans are remotely high impedance enough to use an OTL amp, finding a hybrid that showcases the 6sn7 like your amp does would be ideal (nevermind the fact most hybrids don't even use octal tubes).
But fine, if you're that set against hybrid, make mine OTC.

Another question for anybody who wants to answer…
I wasn't around during the golden age of tubes (or even pre-Solid State for that matter). Was tube rolling a even a thing back then? Did somebody like Mullard market their tubes as " Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions." <quote from Brent Jesse>. Or did folks simply regard them like light-bulbs and you just bought whatever was available?

The OTL I designed is working with 38 ohm cans, (Ripper), and I am using Focal Utopias, 80 ohm I believe, Alpha Primes, maybe 50 ohms, and Oppo PM1's which are 32 ohm I believe with a sensitivity of 102 db. I made an amp, according to those who have heard it that showcases the 6sn7 without doing a hybrid amp. I a trying to wind down my builds and in doing so the last five or six amps will get some exceptional parts that I need to use up. To date I have donated seven of the amps but @bcowen is the only recipient of a free one on this site. Now I have made some adjustments and @Ripper2860 is the only one here who can comment on the changes and SQ.

 

[Ripper2860]

The OTL I designed is working with 38 ohm cans, (Ripper)

35 ohm Hifiman Arya -- but what's 3 ohms between friends?

 

[Paladin79]

35 ohm Hifiman Arya -- but what's 3 ohms between friends?

I forgot the Oppo was 32 ohms lol, it sounds fine as well. You need to get busy annoying Bill, as I recall your amp cabinet is rainbow poplar, a first.

 

[bcowen]

@bcowen

So following this current discussion, how much difference do you find between tubes? (considering you can pull yourself away from your fancy Paladin amp and even use the lowly V2 now)? @evanescent experience isn't the first time I've read that. Ages ago I remember somebody here got 2 Vali2s, built a switching mechanism to compare different tubes OTF and basically couldn't tell a difference. Barring that ECG, I know I'd never be able to differentiate my 6dj8s. I can hear a difference switching types of tubes, but really nothing if I keep it in the family. I'm assuming that a lot of this is due to Schiit using negative feedback in the amp.
Maybe we need to start nagging @Paladin79 to build a hybrid along the same lines as his other amp?

Cheers

Well, I hear far more difference between tubes in @Paladin79 's amp than I do in the Vali 2. Or the Lyr 3 (also a hybrid) for that matter. But I also used the Lyr 3 for the blind challenge @Paladin79 created (with the PVC tubes), and I heard distinct differences between all the tubes. I honestly haven't rolled a lot in the Vali 2, but from the tubes I have rolled they all have their distinct character. Night and day? No. Audible? Yes, to me anyway.

 

[bcowen]

Another question for anybody who wants to answer…
I wasn't around during the golden age of tubes (or even pre-Solid State for that matter). Was tube rolling a even a thing back then? Did somebody like Mullard market their tubes as " Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions." <quote from Brent Jesse>. Or did folks simply regard them like light-bulbs and you just bought whatever was available?

Interesting question. I have no idea. Even though I'm old, I'm not *that* old.

One thing that's for sure is they didn't have transducers (either headphones or loudspeakers) that are even close to what we have now. Could they have even heard a difference if one existed?

Maybe tube rolling started when the great manufacturers exited the business and we were left with the garbage Chinese and Russian tubes of the '80's and '90's. ???

 

[bcowen]

I forgot the Oppo was 32 ohms lol, it sounds fine as well. You need to get busy annoying Bill, as I recall your amp cabinet is rainbow poplar, a first.

Yeah, spill the beans, @Ripper2860 . I must know if I need to send my free amp in for a free upgrade.

 

[Paladin79]

Yeah, spill the beans, @Ripper2860 . I must know if I need to send my free amp in for a free upgrade.

Bill have you learned nothing from your drug dealings? Sometimes things are free at first and then reality sets in and you realize you now have to pay for your fun? Geesh!