Turntable or Ipod!?

[Xander]

Quote:

Originally posted by JML I compared sources.: CD, vinyl, cassette, radio. Guess what? The only time my feet started tapping is when the vinyl was the source. The soundstage was higher, deeper, and extended way beyond the outside of the little speakers. Yeah, it was a bit noisier, but not harsh, brittle, or flat.

I totally agree with this. When I was experimenting with Vinyl and Digital Audio when I had a good speaker system, I went out vinyl binging to thrift shops and stuff. I had the same experience you did while playing vinyl. I totally enjoyed the music, reguardless of the fedelity or noise factor, but for some reason the music was just so much more enjoyable. Everything came alive all of the sudden. Wider soundstage, more depth, everything. Playing the CD version of some recordings I had on vinyl, It sounded like the CDs lacked body or something. Maybe it's just distortion, or who knows, but it certainly sounds good, and gets your feet thumping easily. Maybe its the fact that our subconcious knows that the signal is purer coming from the LP, while CDs just sound harsh and poopy? We know the LP has less fidelity, but for some reason it gets our feet moving... Strange.

The only problem is:

I heard CDs being played from a REAL CD transport system, and I was completely blown away.

So, I think vinyl might be a solution to better sound when you want to spend less money. I think an excellent tube amp, nice pair of home-brew speakers, and a good turntable will blow away any digital/transistor comprised system far far FAR above its pricerange.

Then again vinyl is a pain to take care of. For some it's worth it. I got disgusted because I'd find recordings that I loved, only to find the inner tracks were too closely wound, and cause severe inner groove distortion near the middle and end's of some LPs. Bummer.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Anyone who thinks vinyl intrinsically sounds more accurate than CDs needs their hearing checked. Vinyl can't compare when it comes to dynamic range and accuracy -- real sounds (live music, etc) aren't limited in dynamic range.

However, vinyl can and does often sound "nicer" than CDs. Some people describe this as "more musical" and some people describe it as "less harsh." Whatever.

My problem with vinyl (and I do have a small collection) is that every time you play a record, you're degrading the original a little bit. You won't notice this from one playing to the next, but you'll notice it over time and multiple playings. No matter how good your needle is, and how light the tonearm, the needle is still harder than the vinyl and it will affect it.

Not only that, but cleaning vinyl is a drag, and NOT cleaning vinyl is a different kind of drag -- clicks and pops in the music.

Trying to find new music on vinyl isn't just a drag -- it's impossible in some cases and expensive in others.

Caring for vinyl is a drag. Be careful! Don't want to scratch that disc! A scratch on a record is a permanent scar that doesn't just make the music sound bad -- it can be bad for the needle too. A scratch on the bottom of a CD will be read past most of the time, and if not it can be buffed out of the thick clear plastic without too much trouble.

(The only real bummer with CDs is if you scratch the label side -- that's where the data is, covered only by a thin layer of lacquer which makes up the label. Scratch it too hard and you've scraped away the music. So it's actually far better to scratch the clear side than the label side.)

Anyway, if you only have a small collection of vinyl and no real turntable, then you're better off buying an iPod, IMO. And the iPod won't be useless in 2 years -- it will still store 1000 songs, and play them back through your headphones of choice.

Russ "The Peripatetic Audiophile"

 

[tvhead]

Russ: I love your replies. They are always so practical.. Even though I rebought the V6s despite your suggestion not to. It's winter time, and they make great earmuffs (it was the sweat that bothered me the most, I think).


I also appreciate all the comments from the vinyl lovers out there. I have weighed the pros and cons of vinyl, with all of your help, and have realized that there is a little too much investment involved. Cost and mostly time. Time to set up/clean, time to flip sides ever 20 minutes, and time to search for records.

It's kind of like photography. I mainly shoot black and white, but a few months ago I bought a new digital camera. It's still in its infancy and lacks the smoothness of film. But I still like how the photos look. Each has distinct qualities and feel that I can appreciate. Plus digital is convenient as hell, and film isn't especially developing it yourself.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Photography, huh? I know a little bit about photography... I'm a moderator here:

http://www.photo.net/

Though I'm currently on extended hiatus. I needed a break from that place after 5 years of contributions.

http://www.photo.net/shared/communit...?user_id=14627

Warning, this second link takes about 30 seconds to pop up.

Russ "The Peripatetic Audiophile (and sometime photographer)"

 

[HD-5000]

WHATS AN IPOD?!?!

 

[Hirsch]

I've got three turntables, twice as many cartridges, and about 4,000 LP's, which is a considerable investment in vinyl. One of my tables is the Music Hall MMF 2.1 (not the same as the Pro-Ject 1.3 but very close...they were made in the same factory. The Pro-Ject has a slightly different arm and platter). I haven't heard the Music Hall with the Goldring cartidge it comes with, but it is a fine table with a Grace F9E Ruby (on my list as one of the finest MM cartridges ever made)

That being said, there have been some major advances in digital over the past few years. I used to loath CD, and had to be dragged into digital kicking and screaming. However, I bought a Sony DVP-S9000ES last year for DVD. It sounds pretty good for redbook. SACD playback was a bonus (It's good, but there's a lack of titles). A Theta DAC was actually able to turn my old Rotel CDP into a halfway decent transport, and the ART DI/O has been an inexpensive upgrade. I hate to admit it, but CD's are starting to sound like music.

The convenience of digital is the killer. I can put a disc in an listen. I don't have to jump when the side of the record is over. I don't have to be a maniac about cleaning and record preservatives. I don't have to spend $600 yearly for new MC cartridges or retipping (most of that was at dealer cost, too!)

So, for the most part, my tables sit idle. Sad but true. I looked at how much I was using them, and opted for an AT-OC9 as my latest cartridge...far below what I'm used to, but I can't justify a world-class cartridge for minimal usage (The OC9 still beats the crap out of CD tho

)

So that's my non-answer. If you're looking for the best sound you can get, go with vinyl (yes Russ, I have had my hearing checked). Digital has still not caught vinyl in terms of sound quality. A lot of the "inconveniences" can be turned into fun. There's nothing quite like walking into a thrift shop and finding an LP that's been on the want list for years...

Every time I used to travel, I'd map out the used record shops in the city I was visiting...by the time I left I'd have been to all of them. You get to see a lot of different parts of town that way...

But in the end, digital is convenient, and nowhere near as bad as it used to be. My CD players run constantly, my turntables rarely.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

>> If you're looking for the best sound you can get, go with vinyl
>> (yes Russ, I have had my hearing checked).

Well, then maybe you should get your eyes checked, because I never said CD sounded better.

What I said was that CD sound was more accurate to the original source -- live bands, orchestras, etc are not artificially limited in dynamic range. Both vinyl and CDs are limited in dynamic range, but CDs have a much wider dynamic range than vinyl.

I made no judgements about what sounds better -- after all, "better" is an opinion. I hope you'll accept that some (most) people think CD sounds better. Personally, I think that some of my records sound amazing, but the troubles I listed in my previous post have kept me from maintaining my vinyl collection.

Russ "The Peripatetic Audiophile"

 

[dngl]

Quote:

Originally posted by HD-5000 WHATS AN IPOD?!?!

It's Apple's new MP3 play that's slick as hell.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Incidentally, I came from an mp3 encoder discussion forum, so when you've got your iPod I can give you a few tips on encoding mp3s

(or just go to www.r3mix.net and http://hydrogenaudio.org--they have mp3 encoding down to an art) With good settings you can get your mp3s to sound as close to your source as you'd never believed possible (and ATRAC be damned

)

People here that own mp3 stuff should really look more into the way they encode their music. I find some people here to be somewhat undereducated in this respect and they can make their music sound sooo much better through their mp3 stuff if only they knew...

 

[tvhead]

Joe,

I'll check out the site. Does this have anything to do with VBR?
Anyways, the people on aimster should get a lesson too. I can get some really bad 160kbps compressed recordings.

A few minutes later...
I checked out the sites. It is mainly about windoze encoders.. Is there anything on iTunes?

 

[Il Mostro]

If your priorty is *real* music, by all means go for the turntable.

There is really no comparison. I do own a portable and have a transport and dac in my main rig, but my most enjoyable experiences are, by far, analog. No contest. Digital is fine when compromises are thrown into the equation... convenience, portability, etc. -- and I enjoy that, too. But when push comes to shove, it's analog that takes you to heaven.

Even modest turtables will blow the doors off upscale digital set ups. I encourage you to give it a go.

 

[tvhead]

Il Mostro,

I noticed you lived in Los Angeles too.. Where do you get your analog equipment and records?

Seriously, if I could find a decent used turntable for cheap, it wouldn't hurt so much just in case I decide it just isn't worth all the time involved.

 

[Xander]

I'm with Il Mostro. The only reason I gave up on vinyl, was for lack of funding to buy decent cartridges, order new stylii, etc. There are the good, and the bad things about it, but it's a fun hobby to get in to. And theres nothing like finding that great LP that you love, that sounds great, and knowing you only paid $0.50 for it at some thrift shop or yard sale.

 

[RickG]

Amen, Il Mostro !!

 

[Il Mostro]

Getting vinyl is no problem. There are several stores in town that have good selections.. Rhino and Record Rover (on Venice Blvd) are my current favorites. I've been getting lots of new, re-issue and used stuff there.

Getting a decent turntable on the cheap is something that is better suited to someplace like Audiogon, unless you want to pop for a new Rega, Music Hall or Project at a retail store. Not my recommendation, given what your objectives are. Take your time and keep looking on Audiogon. There are some pretty amazing deals to be had if you are patient. In addition the the models listed above, keep your eyes peeled for older tables like Thorens and AR1's. When I upgraded to my current Oracle, I gave a friend my old modded Thorens TD160 Super. I'm still impressed by how good it sounds, even compared to much more expensive tables. You can have amazingly satisfying musical experiences with older tables.

So far as the perceived hassle is concerned, I could never see the big deal. I see it more as *involvement* with my system, rather than a hassle. It's just a different rhythm -- different rhumba steps. (Same thing with tubes... but that's a whole different subject.)

It doesn't take much time and there's sort of a zen to the whole cleaning thing. If you decide that you like the analog scene you can invest in an inexpensive cleaning machine, like a Nitty Gritty 1.0 or the Audio Advisor's version of the same machine and do as good a job, if not better, than the high priced machines. Again, look for used deals. Also, in a few minutes (with few ingredients) you can make your own "weapons grade" record cleaning solution that will cost you next to nothing. The music is good with non-machine cleaning, but the machine method will take you to "eleven". Hell, homebrewed *anything* is fun.

I'm not trying to slam digital -- having analog, digital and portable digital are all good within context. "Set and settting..." as Dr. Tim used to say.


P.S. There is steady demand for used, entry level tables. If it doesn't float your boat you can re-sell without getting hurt.

P.P.S. Ameoba Records is opening in Hollywood today, 11/17. Originally started in the Bay Area, they are reported to have a HUGE selection of new, re-issue, used and collectable vinyl in all genres. Vinyl junkies here have been talking about this for months. Just an FYI...