Turntable chosen... Let the upgrades begin!

[memepool]

The ADC XLM LPGear are selling is the Integra version which is a later model combining headshell and cart into one assembly whereas the one on ebay is just an XLM cart bundled with an LM1 magnesium headshell.

The ebay sellers headshell is a standard Ortofon/SME bayonet mount which fit's 90% of tonerams with removable headshells including your Pioneer.

Confusingly there is another type of proprietry ADC headshell which LPGear sell which looks very similar to the Linn LVX and Dual CS-505 mounting pattern and fits ADC's low mass arms like the one mounted on the 1600 that cgrums has.

The cart / headshell on ebay I posted a link to, is one of the higher range of ADC carts which was originally sold in 1977-8 with the low mass headshell bundled with it exactly as the ebay seller has it. As I mentioned this was a marketing idea to convert higher mass arms to work with ADC's newer range of low to medium mass matched carts like the XLM II.
This is exactly what you need therefore and will allow you to use any modern cart you like if you decide you don't like the ADC one.

 

[Black Stuart]

Infinitesymphony,
Memepool's given you some very good advise. I think it's important to bear in mind that if you really get into vinyl, you will almost certainly want get something better.

The secret is simple really - to optimise equipment at any level of sound quality - don't get hooked into the more money means better sound quality - this is the snake oil route, best avoided.

Yes that's right the phonos that come from your deck to either a phono stage,pre/amp/phono stage or integrated amp.

The source will always determine the quality of sound you will hear, so it is important to optimise the wiring (all wiring) because this is the conduit that the signal has to use.

MY deck came with an excellant arm and uses solid core silver wire in the arm. This in itself was and is very unusual because (accepted wisdom or BS)
tells you that litz wire is de rigeur. Instead of continuing with this heretic wire for the phono outs, Kenwood then uses litz style copper wire. Once I changed this for sheilded US mil. spec silver/plated copper wire an already detailed soundstage just got better and deeper.

A good idea right now is to put your TT on a table/workbench and just take a look inside at how things work. Check out the resistors to see if any are showing signs of overheating, this is unlikely in a TT though but is something that should be done periodically with all hi-fi gear.

Do you have a multimeter, if you do, you can check values marked on Caps and with a resistor chart of values you can check them too - do not attempt to do this with the deck powered. This way you will build up confidence and a critical eye.

Very importantly as Mempool has said, do check the main bearing. With most DDs this is easy to do and maybe a good clean with alcohol and then use a Slick 50 type oil.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif [LPGear cartridge = newer proprietary Integra version = ADC mount] [eBay combo = XLM + LM1 = standard mount] [LPGear ADC headshell = proprietary mount but for ADC's arms != LM1] [The cartridge+headshell on Ebay] is exactly what you need therefore and will allow you to use any modern cart you like if you decide you don't like the ADC one.

Wow, that is sort of confusing (or at least it was until you explained it!). It all makes sense now. Very cool... I'm not sure where I'd be without your assistance and specific knowledge, memepool.

Now, to decide whether to Buy it Now or wait a few days...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif The secret is simple really - to optimise equipment at any level of sound quality - don't get hooked into the more money means better sound quality - this is the snake oil route, best avoided.

Very true... I'm a believer in that advice, too. But, I'm willing to pay a little more if it will mean significantly better sound quality. Sort of like Blue Jeans Cable versus Monster Cable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart Yes that's right the phonos that come from your deck to either a phono stage,pre/amp/phono stage or integrated amp.

That sounds like a good idea... They're quite old, thin, and brittle--just the stock cabling. Until you mentioned it, I didn't even know that they could be replaced. Does this require a special kind of cable, and will it require any soldering / internal work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart The source will always determine the quality of sound you will hear, so it is important to optimise the wiring (all wiring) because this is the conduit that the signal has to use.

Does this also apply to the wires connecting the cartridge to the headshell? Do you think it might be a good idea to add some new ones to my LPGear order?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackStuart A good idea right now is to put your TT on a table/workbench and just take a look inside at how things work. Check out the resistors to see if any are showing signs of overheating, this is unlikely in a TT though but is something that should be done periodically with all hi-fi gear. Do you have a multimeter, if you do, you can check values marked on Caps and with a resistor chart of values you can check them too - do not attempt to do this with the deck powered. This way you will build up confidence and a critical eye.

I do have a DMM, which I bought when I was building a CMoy... I'm not sure how confident I'd feel opening up my new turntable and poking around, but in the future, I'll almost definitely give it a shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackStuart Very importantly as Mempool has said, do check the main bearing. With most DDs this is easy to do and maybe a good clean with alcohol and then use a Slick 50 type oil.

The manual for the Pioneer PL-400 says that the motor doesn't need oil:

"The motor shaft and bearings of this turntable employ oil-less bearings and so there is no need for lubrication. There is no need to lubricate the tonearm bearings, either."

Is this not necessarily true?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, that is sort of confusing (or at least it was until you explained it!). It all makes sense now. Very cool... I'm not sure where I'd be without your assistance and specific knowledge, memepool. Now, to decide whether to Buy it Now or wait a few days...

Sorry this is confusing. This is the proprietry ADC headshell. http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merc...ode=HEADSHELLS

The arms it's compatible with are the LMF1 and 2 I think

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_d...Search2=Search

and this is the same arm as on cgrum's ADC 1600 deck which you can see in the other post here http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=239459

The headshell I am talking about has a standard bayonet mount and I am pretty sure is called the 'LM-1' or 'LMB-1'. I am certain it's the one on ebay in my last link because I found an advert for that exact cart and headshell bundle in an old mag from 1977!




Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif That sounds like a good idea... They're quite old, thin, and brittle--just the stock cabling. Until you mentioned it, I didn't even know that they could be replaced. Does this require a special kind of cable, and will it require any soldering / internal work? Does this also apply to the wires connecting the cartridge to the headshell? Do you think it might be a good idea to add some new ones to my LPGear order?

Stuart is right about changing the wiring. The cheapest option is actually standard studio microphone cable. In Europe it's Van Damme LC OFC cable and Neutrik plugs but you probably use something else in the USA.

By all means also change the cartridge tags and headshell wires. You can go crazy with the top of the range Van Den Hull or Cardas but I'd say any decent gold plated brass and copper will do. There is some nice looking silver stuff from Unity Audio, in Canada I think, which I saw recently on ebay.

The lead out wires will require soldering to a circuit board somewhere under the hood in all probability.

Changing the internal tonearm wand wiring is much more tricky and I'd find someone who has done it with your particular deck before attempting that.

The same goes for oiling the motor. Who knows what an oiless direct drive motor used nearly 30 years ago and how long it was designed to run. You really need to consult someone with more specialised experience of servicing Pioneer decks. Herandu may know or else other forums like vinylengine.com are the best bet.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif The headshell I am talking about has a standard bayonet mount and I am pretty sure is called the 'LM-1' or 'LMB-1'. I am certain it's the one on ebay in my last link because I found an advert for that exact cart and headshell bundle in an old mag from 1977!

Yep, I understand... I just meant that a vinyl newbie would have a lot of trouble finding a complementary cartridge/headshell combination that also worked with a particular tonearm. I imagine there have been a huge number of mismatches between cartridge, headshell, and tonearm throughout the history of vinyl.

I'll definitely consider some cable upgrades in the near future (don't give me too much upgraditis!). I've always wondered why most turntables don't just have the tonearm hooked up to some female RCA jacks. Wouldn't that make cable upgrades much easier, since they would be the normal external type?

 

[infinitesymphony]

Let the upgrades / tweaks begin... So far I've purchased:

Disc Doctor fluid and brush wet cleaning system from fellow Head-Fi member
LP Gear ProTractor Cartridge Alignment Tool with Zero Level
Shure Precision Stylus Force Gauge SFG-2
LP Gear X3 Record Cleaning & Anti-Static Brush

After buying the cartridge, I should be set for a while, no?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yep, I understand... I just meant that a vinyl newbie would have a lot of trouble finding a complementary cartridge/headshell combination that also worked with a particular tonearm. I imagine there have been a huge number of mismatches between cartridge, headshell, and tonearm throughout the history of vinyl. I'll definitely consider some cable upgrades in the near future (don't give me too much upgraditis!). I've always wondered why most turntables don't just have the tonearm hooked up to some female RCA jacks. Wouldn't that make cable upgrades much easier, since they would be the normal external type?

Compliance issues are widely overlooked and misunderstood certainly. With more modern decks it's not such an issue but it just so happens that late '70s decks veer between one of two extremes.

Getting it wrong is not the end of the world as it will usually just mean more colouration but I think it's worth getting right as it will maximise the quality of playback you will get. Even quite basic turntables are capable of great fidelity if you go to the trouble to set them up properly.

A well set up deck like this can sound so much better than a brand new Rega or whatever that has just been plonked down somewhere. And it's rewarding that the more effort you put into it the better the results are.

The reason turntables have captive cables generally is capacitance. The signal is so small that cable length and sensitivity become an issue. Good quality modern microphone cable is the cheapest upgrade option and shouldn't cost more than 10 or 20 dollars including plugs from Radioshack.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Edit: Nevermind, the seller has more cartridges.

 

[infinitesymphony]

All of my vinyl cleaning and calibration supplies arrived, so I put them to use. After cleaning a record and ensuring that the tracking force was ~1 - 1.2 grams (mf. states 1.0g as ideal), everything sounded much clearer. It might be because the record is clean, but the bass to treble balance sounds different; there's noticeably less bass. I have a feeling that I'm using less tracking force now than the previous owner used... Could this be why there seemed to be more bass before?

 

[memepool]

It's generally better to set the tracking force to the upper end of the recommended range. Tracking too light will actually damage records more than too heavy as the arm is under less control. If it sounds wrong to you rebalance it until you get it to sound right.
Every small adjustment you make can affect the sound and mean other adjustments should be made to the VTA or antskate as they are all interelated. People can take this to ridiculous lengths and reset the VTA for different record thicknesses. It is a pain at first but as you get to know the controls you will learn how to set it by ear.
The biggest influence on the bass is actually what the deck is mounted on if it has little or no suspension.

 

[infinitesymphony]

I've read that the antiskate should be set to roughly the same number as the tracking force (ex. tracking force = 2g, antiskate = 2)... Is this reasonable? I haven't noticed any channel imbalances. I still think it's strange that this Empire 500 ID has a tracking force range of 0.75g to 3.50g, with the recommended force being only 1.00g.

I've read about VTA adjustment, too... Maybe some time I'll have a turntable that has a VTA adjustment in the first place! For the sake of simplicity, only the counterweight and antiskate are adjustable on the PL-400.

Woohoo! I won the ADC XLM II with headshell for $60. Here's hoping it arrives soon and intact.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Wow... Just increasing the tracking force by about half a gram (a little over 1.5g total) really opened up the low end. Good to know!

Now I can't wait for the new cartridge to get those high frequencies in line.

 

[memepool]

The antiskate should be set the same as the downforce as you say but what the markings arn't always that accurate which is why the Shure gauge is recommended. As long as it doesn't cause channel imbalance or distortion it's fine.

Shame there is no VTA, I thought the earlier Pioneer tonearms had it so they must have gotten rid of it on yours. Anyway this just means that the height of the cart becomes important so some carts will work better than others for this reason alone. The only thing you can do about this is the use different thickness of mats but I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Zodduska]

I dont mean to hijack, but I was also thinking of making the plunge into beginner vinyl.

does the Dual CS-515 have a built in phono preamp so I can hook it straight to an amp?

 

[infinitesymphony]

No, none of the old players have built-in preamps, and it's probably better that way.