[infinitesymphony]

Thanks again... It sounds like I have some interesting options ahead of me.

I'll reserve any other questions until the turntable arrives (because I'm sure I'll have some sort of setup question, anyway).

Except for this quick unrelated question... Why is this Pioneer PLC-590 Series 20 selling for so much? It looks fancy, but how well does it perform?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif Except for this quick unrelated question... Why is this Pioneer PLC-590 Series 20 selling for so much? It looks fancy, but how well does it perform?

this was what the Japanese called a "statement product" ie top of the range machine just sold as a motorboard / plinth assembly without a tonearm so you could fit any arm of your choosing.

The mounting hole on that is cut for SME which was/is a very popular choice, many would say they make the best tonearms and you'll often find them on very high-end japanese decks from this period. But of course you can change it and this comes with one precut for a Pioneer arm and also a blank one which you could cut for Linn or Rega patterns.

These top of the line direct drives are very sought after today because they are amazing quality that only radio stations and a very few wealth people could afford at the time. The Technics equivalent which was more commonly being used in the pro market, the SL1000 / SP10 sold for in excess of 1000UKP in the 1970s which was the cost of small Ford estate car (station wagon).

Today to find one in this almost new condition is very rare indeed and the only reason it's not going for much more than this is that keeping these things going can be difficult as the IC controller chips are bespoke vintage Japanese technology which isn't easily replaced.

Repairing one of these if it blows a rare part is a bit like NASA looking for spares for an old Space Shuttle on ebay because Texas Instruments have no spare stock of 1K RAM chips or whatever and don't make them anymore.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Wow, very interesting stuff. I figured that part of its value was due to its minty condition and collectibility. I'm finding out that analog equipment is just like digital equipment--the difference between mid-fi equipment and hi-fi equipment is a part swap here and a tweak there.

While waiting for the turntable, I've been eyeing this:

I'm half-contemplating complete analog immersion... Now all I need is a multitrack tape machine like an Otari or something.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm finding out that analog equipment is just like digital equipment--the difference between mid-fi equipment and hi-fi equipment is a part swap here and a tweak there.

It's a lot more dependant on build quality than digital and with vinyl there is a lot of user level tweaking and fiddling going on to get the sound as good as it can be.

The Pioneer deck you have actually bought is very user friendly by normal standards belonging to a period when electronic automation was being widely used to appeal to the average punter. Modern decks have gone the opposite way, back to basics as they don't have to appeal to non-enthusiasts anymore.


Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif While waiting for the turntable, I've been eyeing

I've been buying a lot of reel to reel tapes recently. They are generally 4 track stereo (2 tracks in either direction like cassette) for '60s recordings onwards recorded at 3 3/4 inches per second (IPS) on 5" or 7" reels. Then there are better quality recordings at 7 1/2 IPS some of which offer breathtaking fidelity, especially the live ones. I just listened to the Newport Festival from '63 which is amazing even though I'm not especially into folk music. A good reel to reel is about as close to a live performance as you can actually get so the classic Jazz stuff particularly goes for crazy amounts on ebay.

Those Pioneer decks are quite sought after and I'd be surprised if it goes for that little money actually. Especially serviced and everything which is really the main consideration. A Reel to reel really requires professional set up to get the best from it and this is never cheap unless you know a friendly engineer who shares your passion or are skilled in electronics yourself and prepare to invest in set-up equipment.

I would say go for a late '70s early '80s example as by then most of the machines being sold were only very expensive ones as the mid-fi market had moved to cassettes. Akai GX series, Technics, Sony, Philips, Uher, Grundig, Revox and Tandberg as well as Pioneer are the ones to check out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm half-contemplating complete analog immersion... Now all I need is a multitrack tape machine like an Otari or something.

Multitracks (ie machines which record 4 or more tracks in one direction) are really only for studio recording if you have a band say, and obviously are even more expensive to maintain and feed as the 1" and 2" tape costs a bomb.

1/4 inch tape is the most common format. Ampex (Quantegy) tape has actually come down in price again recently. Amazon have it for 15USD for the NAB professional 10" reels.

The portable reel to reels are a lot of fun for making recordings out and about. Uher Report Monitor's were the industry standard for journalists and there are plenty about. They make lovely recordings and have a compact footprint. Cheaper than the Nagra's used in film and more widely available in stereo configurations so they can play back commercially recorded tapes so long as you can reel them off onto 5" spools on another machine.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's a lot more dependant on build quality than digital and with vinyl there is a lot of user level tweaking and fiddling going on to get the sound as good as it can be.

Right, I just meant that it's less about "replace op-amp A, power stage, filters, etc." and more about "make it heavier, allow more adjustments, better motor." Analog seems more like tuning a car than building a computer.

Quote:

The Pioneer deck you have actually bought is very user friendly by normal standards belonging to a period when electronic automation was being widely used to appeal to the average punter. Modern decks have gone the opposite way, back to basics as they don't have to appeal to non-enthusiasts anymore.

I'm content being a punter for now

. At some point, I'm sure I'll love having all of the adjustments at my fingertips, but I suppose stuff like automatic quartz speed control has advantages, especially when manual adjustments might not be as accurate, or could gradually drift as components age and wear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool A Reel to reel really requires professional set up to get the best from it and this is never cheap unless you know a friendly engineer who shares your passion or are skilled in electronics yourself and prepare to invest in set-up equipment.

Yeah, that seems to be the case with almost everything electronic... If everything is to be working in tip-top shape, it's all about who you know (or your DIY ability

).

Quote:

Multitracks (ie machines which record 4 or more tracks in one direction) are really only for studio recording if you have a band say, and obviously are even more expensive to maintain and feed as the 1" and 2" tape costs a bomb. 1/4 inch tape is the most common format. Ampex (Quantegy) tape has actually come down in price again recently. Amazon have it for 15USD for the NAB professional 10" reels.

Yep... One of my long-term goals is to set up a recording studio (I just graduated from university yesterday afternoon with a degree in Music Technology (!)). I want to become familiar with tape machine maintenance and editing, because who knows when I'll need the knowledge to operate a tape machine? After all, so many bands are still using tape for recording purposes. With the advent of digital recording, tape operation seems to be becoming a niche field.

And yes, tape is expensive! Something like a little over $100 per reel for multitrack tape the last time I looked.

Quote:

Uher Report Monitors...Nagras...

I've been learning all sorts of stuff about small analog tape technology lately, thanks to this thread and the one about small-footprint CD players. I figured everything had moved to digital quite a while ago.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Uhm... I placed a quickie bid on a cheap PL-990 reconditioned turntable and ended up winning the auction. Guess that's another to add to the collection.

Quick question... How do I change the thread title? I've read that it's a new feature, but I can't figure it out.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif PL-990 reconditioned turntable Quick .

There is a modern PL-990 in black which looks pretty poor. Is yours an older model? don't know that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif question... How do I change the thread title? I've read that it's a new feature, but I can't figure it out.

I'd I'd like to know that too.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Hahah, no, it's the new one. The PL-990 is the only turntable Pioneer manufactures anymore (at least for the U.S. market). I'm actually planning to give it away to my girlfriend's little sister, who's been wanting a new turntable ever since her '60s Marantz with built-in speaker gave up and her parents threw it away (...probably just a belt or stylus issue

).

The PL-990, like a lot of budget TTs these days, has a built-in phono stage / EQ, so she won't need to worry about finding a separate one. Plus, it even has a pitch control! That'll be an upgrade for her.

 

[memepool]

That pioneer looks pretty plastic fantastic. How old is she? be funny to know whether she realises the drop in quality

 

[infinitesymphony]

She just turned 16 a month or two ago--too young to know the difference. The Marantz was never serviced or maintained, and now she'll be able to hook up the turntable to a proper stereo instead of using a small mono speaker. So, I imagine it'll be a significant improvement.

 

[infinitesymphony]

The Pioneer PL-990 reconditioned unit shipped in 1 day (!), so I have it now. It's in brand new condition, and seems to work well for its purpose. The strobe and pitch control actually work very well.

The output of the built-in preamp seems a bit quiet and the quality is nowhere near "audiophile," but of course that's to be expected from a contemporary super-budget unit.

My problem now stems from dusty and dirty records. Which is the better choice: a wet system like RCA's Discwasher D4+ kit (eraser-like brush and cleaning fluid), a carbon fiber brush like the popular Audioquest brush, or a roller-type cleaner like the Nagaoka Rolling Cleaner? All seem to be around the same price, but I can't afford to buy all of them at once.

Speaking of rolling cleaners... They look awfully similar to the 3M rolling pad I use to clean hair and dirt off of clothing. Are "vinyl" rollers really any different?

 

[memepool]

The best manual wet cleaning systems I know of are the Allsop Orbitrac


http://www.allsop.com/cd-dvd-cleaner...00/orbitrac-2/

and the Knosti Disco Antistat

http://www.coolgales.com/store/cart....category_id=52

The Knosti, even though it looks like a toy from the '70s, is particularly good for really dirty records.

A vacuum machine will always be a good investment in the long term if you really get into vinyl as, no matter whether you clean your discs with a homemade solution or the more expensive commercial ones, the main issue is getting the gunk and cleaner residue out of the grooves. I think the cheapest one in the US is the Nitty Gritty Model 1 http://www.nittygrittyinc.com but this is still the best part of 400USD.

There was mention of a DIY Kit version using a standard household vacuum cleaner here recently which cost about 80USD which would be good value.

With brand new records though you shouldn't really need anything apart form a decent brush. The Goldring-type one with a felt pad and carbonfibre brushes is probably the best and is sold under a variety of brand names.
Looks like this
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merc...tegory_Code=PE

 

[infinitesymphony]

Thanks again... I've been doing some research into brushes, and saw a site that recommended a Hunt/EDA brush that looked like a combination between a regular carbon fiber brush and a velvet brush. I couldn't find it anywhere, but it appears that this one is exactly the same design.

The Nitty Gritty, VPI, or other cleaning machine probably isn't part of my immediate future, but after testing a few records of varying ages, I understand the need for wet/vacuum cleaning--clean records sound 50,000x better!

I'll look out for those two manual wet clean systems you mentioned... It appears that the Allsop Orbitrac has been discontinued due to the closing of their manufacturing plant.

I've seen you often recommend LP Gear... I dig the website layout; it's much better-designed than some larger stores (ex. Needle Doctor). Have you had good experiences ordering from them?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've seen you often recommend LP Gear... I dig the website layout; it's much better-designed than some larger stores (ex. Needle Doctor). Have you had good experiences ordering from them?

I generally just order from whoever has what I want as vinyl related stuff isn't exactly common and most people who are still selling it are enthusiasts and probably not making huge profits.

LP gear, Needledoctor, Turntable basics, Audiocubes etc... are all very good in my experience. Dealing with US companies one generally expects and usually gets higher levels of service than in many other parts of the world.

Audiocubes2 looks pretty interesting as well although I have read people dissing them on the headphone forums for being overpriced on some things, for me being in the UK it's worth the premium because they export world wide and paying in dollars saves me loads anyway.

 

[infinitesymphony]

At long last, my Pioneer PL-400 has arrived! I hooked it up to an older receiver, and even though its audio plugs are a bit dirty and in need of replacement, it sounds great! I haven't even bothered to align it yet myself... The strobe shows that the pitch is rock-solid stable. Very happy with the purchase!

Now, on to possible upgrades.

The cartridge is an Empire 500 1D. What can you tell me about this cartridge?

Would the $50 ADC QLM you mentioned be a worthwhile upgrade, or would it be more cost-effective to get a lighter headshell and one of the popular cartridges (ex. M97, AT440, Grado Black)?