[Redcarmoose]

Ramblings: "BA Timbre", Tone & Coherency

When any IEM is described to have a "BA timbre", there is usually a negative connotation. For some people, they simply don't hear the BA timbre. Just exactly what it is it? First, let's define timbre...

timbre (tim·bre)
: the quality given to a sound by its overtones: such as
a : the resonance by which the ear recognizes and identifies a voiced speech sound
b : the quality of tone distinctive of a particular singing voice or musical instrument

Here we can infer that timbre is not just made up of tone, but by the resonance and quality of tone of the sound. Any multi-BA setup can be warm, having a lack of warmth, bright, dark, bassy etc. That change in frequency response will alter the tone of the IEM. In the same pitch and loudness, timbre would differentiate one sound from another, due to its inherent differences in character. Examples of real life application of timbre changes are effect pedals for guitars - the character of the sound changes.

There is quite a large difference in sound from a Balanced Armature driver compared to sound from a Dynamic driver. Balanced armatures vary in sound due to it's design - tubes are usually used and they do not push as much air as compared to dynamic drivers. Personally speaking, I find that balanced armatures have a weightless, thin (not shrill!) and perhaps a plastic-like timbre. BA tends to have quite a sharp attack of the transient, but lacks the body and decay. There needs to be more body and sustain in every note for it to feel like it's real! Take a strike to the skin of the drum for example. BAs have a tendency of conveying the initial "THUMP" but not the vibration and feeling of air after the thump. In a sense, BA tends to be one-dimensional since you hear the note but can't necessarily feel the note. Perhaps there isn't enough air pushed for it to stimulate that feeling of realism. I don't know for sure.

A good classic example of BA timbre would be Etymotics. Put it next to a DD like the Sony EX1000 and the differences are immediately apparent outside of tone. EX1000 can convey instruments such as bass drums, sax and violins very beautifully. That is not to say DDs are better however, BAs can be easily precision tuned and factors such as tubes can be kept consistent. I do personally believe that BAs tend to have more perceived detail as well, perhaps due to the sheer speed of BAs. The sustain and decay is faster which helps hear the attack of the multiple different notes better.

So, adding DD + BA in a setup? The setup with different types of drivers in a single unit is referred to as a hybrid. In terms of coherence, it is impossible to achieve coherence. The drivers are inherently different from one another. Multi-BAs can work together to achieve coherence (i.e VE8 is masterfully tuned) but when a DD is thrown into the mix, transients are entirely different as to how they sound. Thus this is why Jerry Harvey himself says that DD bass is too slow when paired with BA mids and highs...and I can see some truth in that. DDs tend to have a meatier sound and when paired together with BAs, coherence can be an audible issue.

In an age where we are also starting to see triple hybrids (DD + BA + Estats), perhaps coherency will surely take a toll. I'm quite excited to hear the Sony Z1R iem myself - surely having DD for bass and highs and BA for mids will cause audible incoherency? I'll find out soon enough...

Such a great post! IMO

 

[dhruvmeena96]

@toranku I think you have to swap some iem eartips, as it may not be your ear issue but eartips issue.

My impressions don't have to line up with yours. These are my thoughts. I think it's a cheap move to say that the demo units are defective or even go so far to suggest I have some ear occlusion issue. I think that's flat out rude. I do know you mean no bad intentions but it's just unfair to say that.

Appreciate the feedback. Thanks.

Bro read the line I quoted from the post .....I think you got hurt...I never had that motive


Ear occlusion can happen with anybody...it happened with tansio mirai tsmr3 for me on stick tips


@toranku

 

[malvinviriya]

Well I agree with you(not to make it hard)

This is clarity graph.
It has nothing to do with the FR response.

Well....
If you have correct linear phase: that leads to coherency
FIBAE 1, Etymotic ER4 etc

With the above, if you have flat impedance, low noise, low distortion etc

It leads to clarity
The above graphs are from homemade iem, we were doing DIY.

Bass clarity is when bass is precised time and you can bear bass note, guitar and bassy device separated and so on

In treble also

This may clear your issues.

And the clarity also define a timbre of a driver

We were able to change timbre of driver with some parallel circuit on that thread


Nice quick review....I am reading and till now I agree with most of the review. Its like non biased opinion


Clarity means how your brain is easily perceiving the sound
Clarity graph tells which frequency is easily percieved


See the dark green...that is a stock 6 driver bellsing 10013
Light green is a circuit attached to it to change its clarity and timbre

See 1kHz clarity, which focuses on how easily the midrange is perceived



Hope this info helps

Tell me, where and how do you derive this graph? It’s not something I’ve ever seen

 

[dhruvmeena96]

Tell me, where and how do you derive this graph? It’s not something I’ve ever seen

You can go to Homemade IEM thread to check it out. But that's for only DIY iem...let's not spoil this thread(PM me)

 

[malvinviriya]

You can go to Homemade IEM thread to check it out. But that's for only DIY iem...let's not spoil this thread(PM me)

I don't think anyone would have the time to sort thru 592 pages of discussion like you do. Just share what you learned here! I think it's good learning for all of us. However I do question heavily the validity of this method and view tbqh

EDIT: To add. The guy just posted the graph without having any more discussions. Which is why I came to this conclusion. How and where did he/she derive said graph. If this is not FR why it's all in FR domain, it seems.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

I don't think anyone would have the time to sort thru 592 pages of discussion like you do. Just share what you learned here! I think it's good learning for all of us. However I do question heavily the validity of this method and view tbqh

EDIT: To add. The guy just posted the graph without having any more discussions. Which is why I came to this conclusion. How and where did he/she derive said graph. If this is not FR why it's all in FR domain, it seems.

This is clarity of signal received on mic. It is cumulation of distortion, noise, phase shown in dB of clarity.

A linear phase and low noise, distortion will sound more resolving by the factor of dB to our brain. If these factors are very low, it jumps the clarity, of the brain perceiving the signal. It makes the brain easier to process data, add the soundstage and imaging and the plus point.

It actually makes he earphone impulse more accurate. The more accurate impulse is, the better brain gets the data.

It was a circuit, I made there, tested and proved to increase clarity and made BA more ideal speaker.

Thinking if making it Into profession pretty soon.

Its starting from pg500 and goes upto pg 592

Clarity is how brain perceive the signal.(or microphone does). The less the brain has to process the signal, the more the clarity.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

This is clarity of signal received on mic. It is cumulation of distortion, noise, phase shown in dB of clarity.

A linear phase and low noise, distortion will sound more resolving by the factor of dB to our brain. If these factors are very low, it jumps the clarity, of the brain perceiving the signal. It makes the brain easier to process data, add the soundstage and imaging and the plus point.

It actually makes he earphone impulse more accurate. The more accurate impulse is, the better brain gets the data.

It was a circuit, I made there, tested and proved to increase clarity and made BA more ideal speaker.

Thinking if making it Into profession pretty soon.

Its starting from pg500 and goes upto pg 592

Clarity is how brain perceive the signal.(or microphone does). The less the brain has to process the signal, the more the clarity.

 

[crinacle]

This is clarity of signal received on mic. It is cumulation of distortion, noise, phase shown in dB of clarity.

A linear phase and low noise, distortion will sound more resolving by the factor of dB to our brain. If these factors are very low, it jumps the clarity, of the brain perceiving the signal. It makes the brain easier to process data, add the soundstage and imaging and the plus point.

It actually makes he earphone impulse more accurate. The more accurate impulse is, the better brain gets the data.

It was a circuit, I made there, tested and proved to increase clarity and made BA more ideal speaker.

Thinking if making it Into profession pretty soon.

Its starting from pg500 and goes upto pg 592

Clarity is how brain perceive the signal.(or microphone does). The less the brain has to process the signal, the more the clarity.

Do preface all your “clarity” measurements with that C80 values are typically used to evaluate reverbant rooms. Its use in headphones and IEMs are untested and putting up such graphs and claiming that they objectively show “clarity” sets a dangerous precedent.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

Do preface all your “clarity” measurements with that C80 values are typically used to evaluate reverbant rooms. Its use in headphones and IEMs are untested and putting up such graphs and claiming that they objectively show “clarity” sets a dangerous precedent.

C50, C80 and D50 .....

This is C50

Well, its coming from experience and not a solid proof of statement.. Did a survey with and without RC filter for linear phase. We did a blind testing on the thread there and it shows a significant improve in quality of signal perceived.

For rooms, yes they are for reverbant rooms, but in IEM, it showed us something peculiar and intriguing. We are still not 100% clear about clarity reference, but it was improving with lower noise, distortion and linear phase.

C50 is most often used as an indicator of speech clarity. C50 is expressed in dB and it is related to the attribute clarity. It is an objective measure of the clarity or intelligibility of speech. The basis for C50 is the fact that late reflections are unfavorable for understanding speech because it causes speech sounds to merge making speech unclear. However, if the delay does not exceed a certain time limit, the reflections will contribute positively to the intelligibility.(for those who are new)

C80 is most often used as an indicator of music clarity, or harmonic tones.

We still dont know how to interpret D50 in IEM. We just stumbled on this and it was working somehow.


Well thanks for clearing it out for other members though...though
And thanks for all the measurements you have posted so far.

The effected impedance by the RC circuit(zobel) for BA showed the improvement of clarity over that specific range. Without changing the FR of response.


And it was also making detail more perceivable and less fatigue compared to stock driver..

I was building IEM and the zobel effect was pretty noticeable. It reduced fatigue and made it easier to listen without changing FR plus thing sounded faster.

Why dont you build a RAB32033 with and without zobel
Cz=4.6uF/4.7uF
Rz=41ohms

And compare....

You will be shocked with measurements and listening experience.

You will see clarity increase
Same FR
But more soundstage


We found that BA driver reverb inside the the enclosure and the tube it is firing. And the non linear electrical phase also create space time domain issue with sound.

The sound that reaches the listener first is called direct sound. This is followed by early reflections. The early reflections that reach the listener within 50 ms are integrated with the direct sound and thus have a positive effect on speech clarity. The reflections that come later may be perceived as disturbing.(even more info)

In IEM we have to understand more, but positive clarity had way more positive result


The graphs are

Bellsing 10013 with zobel(light green)
Bellsing 10013(dark green)
Quad RAF series(zobel)

 

[Nabillion_786]

@toranku does the Sony ex800st hold up to good iems of today in terms of clarity, separation and imaging?

 

[toranku]

@toranku does the Sony ex800st hold up to good iems of today in terms of clarity, separation and imaging?

Clarity perhaps not, but separation and imaging are very solid. The older brother takes it even further with these aspects at the cost of a very much harsher treble.

 

[TooPoorForHiFi]

Clarity perhaps not, but separation and imaging are very solid. The older brother takes it even further with these aspects at the cost of a very much harsher treble.

Any chance for revisit of the Meze Rai Penta? I've been hearing some people like them more so than the Solaris and Andromada.

 

[toranku]

Any chance for revisit of the Meze Rai Penta? I've been hearing some people like them more so than the Solaris and Andromada.

Probably not, it's too out of the way and I don't have time

 

[Mimouille]

Probably not, it's too out of the way and I don't have time

 

[surfgeorge]

@toranku between the ex800st, JVC fd01/fd02 and fdw01/fdw02 which one has the best male vocals in terms of forwardness and more full bodied whilst still being clear enough?

Chiming in a little late on this.
I have the EX800ST and JVC HA-FD02 with micropore mod on the nozzle.

For me the modded FD02 beats the EX800 for full bodied vocals and a generally full bodied sound.
Unmodded they are quite bright, but modded the vocals are excellent and convey emotions extremely well.
I wrote a lot about them (and comparisons to the EX800ST) in the JVC FD01 thread.

The EX800 in comparison are more neutral - analytic to me, I like them for example for acoustic jazz.