"Top audiophile experience" around 1000 bucks all included is it possible?
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Nov 19, 2017 at 7:22 PM Post #76 of 272
Interesting moves for sure! But it is only possible to do that for the headphone OR the speakers, i prefer to have a Totl amp. so versatile that it can power relatively optimally the 2...There exist more than very good vintage amplifier that drives the 2 at their optimal potential or almost, and then it is necessary to pick the right headphones after the amp and for it. ... It is always possible to have one amp dedicated for the headphones, and another one for the speakers for sure, but that will crash my price limit of 1000 bucks for all included...This necessity of only one amp. direct me toward the choice of the AKG K 340, an headphone difficult to drive and better drived by a speakers amp. Boy! that was a good move for me, the K 340 rightly driven is absolutely TOTL headphones and for me surpass all my other headphones, i listen to them no more because of that first hibryd headphones that have a depth imaging probably no under 1000 thousand cans rivals, and a mid frequencies range to die for, then after that no more new cans for me in a reasonnable price range......:ksc75smile:

But these are the last things that I do, in any system the transducer has the biggest impact because its the one that makes the sound. And I build the rest of my system around the speaker or the headphone.
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 6:40 PM Post #77 of 272
I include here a drawing (yes i know that i have failed the drawing course:ksc75smile:) illustrating my reflexion.

The double bias point circle the point of diminishing returns, because there are 2 kind of bias : a subjective audiophile one,for example an awe moment; and an objective technical one, for example the contributions of the electronical engeneering audio evolution in terms of different measurable effects to compare different products, this double bias influence in very different directions the way the experience of sound is perceived... Then the point of diminishing returns is defined in 2 different ways : you have this technical guy that say this amplifier at low cost is the better in a measured environment hence it is the best there is, all other choice costlier is money trowing off...And you have a pure audiophile that in his search for perfection will do and pay anything, obeying to his own criteria.... The definitions of these diminishing returns points-zone are different in these 2 cases...

My original question is :Is it possible to live a top audiophile experience around 1000 bucks?

This question is very relative for sure, but it is necessary to ask this question, and look for an equilibrium between the 2 bias that contribute to the definition of the diminishing return point, and now you see that this point is in reality,many points, a line or better a complex zone ...

We may reach this zone with the purchase of a costly system, or we can ask for ourself what are the method to improve our own actual system or to improve any audio system, at low cost to reach this zone of diminishing return, and live perhaps our first awe moment, or in some case our last one, because at some point the next one would be too much money to afford it...

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Nov 20, 2017 at 6:51 PM Post #78 of 272
No it is not possible, but still have fun.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 7:01 PM Post #79 of 272
Nov 20, 2017 at 7:04 PM Post #80 of 272
To have a top audiophile experience for a g. Ain’t going to happen. But you can have enjoyment from putting together this 1 g system. Make sense? Just consider the fundamental starting block of an external music server running bit perfect software....good luck.
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 7:07 PM Post #81 of 272
It would never be possible to get top quality at cheap price, period.

Even if you go the rout of DIY as pulling knowledge out of your brain, skills out of your labor, and sweating out your back. You would never get Top quality at cheap price. You can essentially cut down the design, productions, concept, prototype, labor, and then plethora of other people involvement to get what you would considered the best.

In the end, everything has it price. More likely the components you are putting together will be over the sky Expensive.

Unless, you pull out DIY everything, like wounding your own Voice-coil, Making your own Driver Cones, tuning it, creating your own magnets.....etc....etc.....If you have the ability to do all this, your Tools itself is already in the range of thousands of dollars. The experiences, knowledge, nope....not even close. The most expensive expenses for any companies are research and development. So, doing R&D yourself ? Possible, but for 1k ? Impossible

So, really, no, you can not get top Audiophile performances for 1k. Then there are amplifier, DAC, each to throw in to the chain.

You can get an acceptable performances system with 1k, and you can find them in Best Buy everyday as it is The products to aim toward the Mass consumers.

You can get some Fun in a system with 2k or so, but no....Audiophile performances systems are all around 7-10K to even be considered Audiophile.

Top Audiophile system ? Well, google up Focal Utopia Grande, just for Speakers alone....and then there is no such thing as good speakers in a football field. Every setup have to be in it best environments to perform it best, and not necessarily being expensive. Talking about Large Speakers, you have to take into acoustic property of your room as the most important next to the speakers.

Tell me, can you design and Make an acoustic room for 1k ? Nope

Those were the long answer from me
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 7:25 PM Post #82 of 272
All is relative... I dont pretend that my actual system for example is exactly comparable to a new 10,000 one...
I pretend that with good choices it is possible to mount a relatively audiophile system around 1,000 dollars... The choices that i speak of are not only about some product, be it used,be it vintage, or be it new; the choices necessary are also for example room treatment, even for nearfield listening it is very rewarding... I planify mine for 50 dollars all in all...This is not high tech top of the world room treatment but the upgrade was so great that, yes i know for a fact that this is possible.... I know also other ways to improve all pieces of gear at very low cost.... At the end i consider my system now audiophile real experience near or very near the zone of diminishing returns point...

The real goal of this thread is to make think all of us,particularly the newcomers... I was a newcomer here 7 years ago, i was desesperate by the cost that i thought were necessary, the cost i must invest to have high end experience at this time... I would have like at this time to stumble to some thread that gives some suggestions for reaching this goal without selling the wife or the house... There is almost only thread about products, i want a thread to partake our experience and methods to improve our actual gear, or the suggestions necessary to buy the more rewarding products to reach this awe moment, near if possible to the zone of diminishing returns points...:beerchug:

A final observation: Price is not the only criteria to induce audio awe experience... Thinking about simple,low cost solutions is the best method...I want to think with you all...

An example: Do you know what is one of the best headphone in 1980 ? This is the AKG K 340...

Do you think that this headphone is without value because of the utopia or some other many thousand dollars headphones? No In fact beside a few very costly ones it is one of the best headphone under 1000 and perhaps around many that are way costlier... I pay 150 dollars for this TOTL can... This is only an example to contradict your opinion...A totl at very very low cost...

Do you think that out of his box this AKG K 340 sound at his optimal potential in any system without any measure to damp it or clean all the gear system ? No ... By a great margin a resolute no.... I can assure you that the guy that sold me this can has never listen really to it in a clean system and after damping it rightly... :ksc75smile: He will have never sold that headphone for a ridiculous 150 bucks...What is the cost to upgrade it? i know what the cost is....Way too much for me, and why? if the headphone is totally satisfying why upgrading it?

I will not give other examples for the moment...

I want to thank you for this contribution of yours, it is very interesting for many i think...For me for sure...
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 7:40 PM Post #83 of 272
Put it simply, everyone want the best for the cheapest. Correct ? Only fools think otherwise.

Anyways, the term of Audiophiles can be thrown around so easily. I can say that IMO, Beats by Dre is Audiophile quality at affordable price .....

I don’t know what you did or had done to your system and what other systems had you compared it to in order to conclude that your system is 1k and is top Audiophile quality . The only thing I know is that components itself are not cheap ....components don’t automatically research, develope and made itself.....then quality components don’t automatically draw a number from a RNG (random number generated system) to make you hit the Jackpot like in video game.

Again, you can buy vintage, used gears, broke down stuff and fixed it up. You can not get top Audiophile quality for cheap. It is impossible

The next conclusion I can throw in here as a bonus is self satisfactory. If you are satisfied with what you have for 1k, you can conclude that you had achieved a top Audiophile system at 1k . There is no winning over self-satisfactory. Satisfaction in itself is priceless. If you get this level, I congratulate you. However, if you want the mass of others people to think the same, it is not possible. Simple as that. You want the mass to think the same ? You follow the mass, and what does the mass say in simple term ? Nothing cheap is top quality

There are a lot of senses that follow it though, top quality products can never be made for cheap. Period. Vintage stuff if had reached legendary status are always sacred and have massive group of people to seek it out...unless you are into a hobby that only have you and your friend in the globe...So, eventually it became sacred and inflated ....and expensive.
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 7:49 PM Post #84 of 272
The next conclusion I can throw in here as a bonus is self satisfactory. If you are satisfied with what you have for 1k, you can conclude that you had achieved a top Audiophile system at 1k . There is no winning over self-satisfactory. Satisfaction in itself is priceless. If you get this level, I congratulate you. However, if you want the mass of others people to think the same, it is not possible. Simple as that. You want the mass to think the same ? You follow the mass, and what does the mass say in simple term ? Nothing cheap is top quality


You have understand perfectly my point, the awe moment is a subjective experience....I only want to think with some people to some ways to improve our system.... And no i dont want the mass to think the same, only speaking with you or few others and giving hope to some newcomers...

I have never said though that i have achieved top audiophile quality in an absolute sense of the word,(only a fool will think that!) only relatively to my own budget,imagination, and requirements and criteria concerning musical experience...You name that satisfaction and indeed this is priceless...Money dont buy all thing...Audio satisfaction is sometimes and more than we think out of reach of money only ...For sure i dont speak about illimited amount of money here, with an illimited amount of money audio awe is not a goal to reach, only a "thing" one can buy, but where is the real satisfaction? With money you dont buy love...You dont buy also the pleasure of the thinking process in our way to reach the goal : awe under 1000 bucks....
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 7:53 PM Post #85 of 272
I have nerver said though that i have achieved top audiophile quality in an absolute sens, only relatively to my own budget,imagination, and requirements and criteria concerning musical experience...

This is the same as satisfaction. When you get to this level, it is what people call “god level”! Because you just don’t care, and is totally enjoying what you have without even blinking into other possibilities or what others may think and so on. Seriously speaking, and that is why satisfaction is priceless. I do think though, the topic shall be titled “1k Audiophile system for personal sastisfaction, is it possible?” My friend, a close friend of mine, he loves music, but he never take anything further than a phone and a stock earbuds, and to him that is always the best. He doesn’t even buy phones that has no earbuds lol! But he never cared about other headphones or ears buds
 
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Nov 20, 2017 at 7:57 PM Post #86 of 272
This is the same as satisfaction. When you get to this level, it is what people call “god level”! Because you just don’t care, and is totally enjoying what you have without even blinking into other possibilities or what others may think and so on. Seriously speaking, and that is why satisfaction is priceless.

And this is what we call the zone of diminishing return points after this Awe experience...To reach that i think this is possible around 1000... But if someone want the absolute best and the absolute top level audiophile experience i dont think that this is possible under 100,000 dollars...Like you said, i must pay for some advanced technology for sure,if i want the absolute best in a technical sense.... But i have not written the question of this thread for very rich people,they dont need to come here for suggestions, but for the newcomers like i was 7 years ago, sad, because not able to afford what it seems necessary, to me at this time, to live an awe audio experience....I was thinking to upgrade all along, each and every months passing by frustration rage....:ksc75smile: And now i dont have any envious and urging desire to upgrade at all costs,no more.... Music is music when you have it at the end, musical timbre, a soundstage, a depth imaging, a relatively beautiful, organic, flowing sound...And i have it finally,it is possible around 1000 yes....For that i have read a lot and experiment a lot with very simple methods in the last years...In fact it was a search without end, but at low money costs, even after satisfaction obtained, i have fun to imagine way to improve with very simple things...It worked great for me and made little miracles for the last year...

Some weeks ago i read a post and a review about very costly dacs, i purchase the cds the guy use to compare many costly dacs,by curiosity, and desire to compare written impressions with my owns, guess what : with my own NOS dac, in my completely cleaned and treated system, from the electrical panel to the headphones, i discover that with the same music, with a dac that cost me 100 bucks, it seems that i experience near and almost , subjectively speaking for sure, the same approx. level of described details than with the more costlier dacs there is in this review( for example the perceived location of singers, the details of percussions etc )....The reviewer was very, very detailed in his comparison between one and each cd... I will not name these dacs that i had never listen to begins with... This is not my goal to bash anything here, only to give hope... And DONT read my words like i pretend that my dac EQUAL the totl one, for sure not, but it was too close,or seems so,my listening impressions compared with the written details of the review, too close in performance to justify to me, after that reading and listening, the extraordinary price for an upgrade...

The conclusion is, without much money, with some rightly choosen product to begin with, and with only some few measures to implement cleaning and damping process, at low cost,yes it is possible to transform a very good product in a subjective way,in an ALMOST relatively totl one, or at least, not too distant of the totl one ...After all music when it is perceived, is music, it is all that count...There is always, and there will be always a better product...BUT satisfaction is possible,with a good product rightly implemented in the audio system of your house, this is all i want to say, nothing more,nothing less...And sometimes a good product rivals a better one,because of the difference there is in the process of implementation in a particular environment...

For sure i dont pretend that my dac equal a many thousand dollars one, only that for myself the subjective listening result were so convincing that the desire to upgrade was nil...Diminishing returns zone was reached for me...Satisfaction of your reptilian brain with the music is the key to Audio Awe...Not money...

BUT dont think for a minute that my dac had a sound, right out of the box like now ,after all my implementation measures to reach this actual optimal level; as good as it is, without the cleaning measures and damping measures implemented in all my audio system, and even in my house,not only in my audio room, no way and no comparison possible.... I know now that simply buying a new product without any other action of ourself, is no warrenty of satisfaction, and no warrenty of the peak performance of ANY product, even the TOTL one...To drive a product to his peak level performance some measures and thinking are necessary...It is the same for my speakers and headphone, no comparison between their sound right of the box and after treatment....Particularly the headphone i love the most, the AKG K340, that is so sensible to all links downstream from the central electrical panel to it ; it takes me real work to treat it and the audio links before it ,now the sound is way superior to my 2 stax,my hifiman he-400, and to my beyer dt-150,which i listen to no more, then a totl true headphone,but not so good , right out of the box...

I will repeat myself here to conclude :

«..Almost all people here and there are not conscious that an audio product is not ready, and is not at his optimal functionning regime right out of the box, but need to be installed and prepared, in an audio environment first (synergy with other gears,room treatment,cups treatment for headphones is often necessary, cable and interconnect treatment,etc), secondly in an electro-magnetic atmosphere, where the products and the electrical grid of the house need to be cleaned by some filtering methods, and last but not least in a physical location where the products need to be treated to be better damped and for better absorbtion and dissipation of vibrations to prevent and control at some level the generalized mechanically and electro-magnetically induced negative resonance that is a pervasive noise in all links and between them .»
 
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Nov 21, 2017 at 1:04 AM Post #87 of 272
I like Richard thoroughly enjoy the K340's, unfortunately the wouldn't be my first pick for a one and done end game headphone setup.
My pick would be:
Hifiman HE500/Fostex TH600- $400+/-
Various vintage integrated amps- $50-500 (depending on condition, vintage and repair costs)
Schiit Modi- $100

It's easier to find both the HE500 and TH600 in condition and both hold their own against newer TOTL (the fact that both headphones trusted punches with the HD800 and were/are considered viable alternatives is objectively a fair qualifier).
Though vintage amps of high breed are often pricey and scarse (Sansui, pioneer, marantz etc) their were plenty of lesser known competing gems from either respectable companies (Yamaha, Sony, Akai etc) or virtually unknown companies liberally "borrowing" ideas (Citizen, Optonica, Sanyo). Though it might be a little more expensive initially if restoration is involved, speaker amps make up for it in functionality hands down. How many headphone amps have two or more line level inputs, a working phono stage (or two), the ability to drive speakers and built in tone controls? I would comfortably say that a well functioning vintage speaker amp would preform better than any headphone only amp up to $2,500 and then remain as a strong counter argument surviving on functionality thereafter (graphs be damned)
The modi being a self-explanatory pick imo.
 
Nov 21, 2017 at 8:06 AM Post #88 of 272
By the way you are right my Sansui amp is now more pricey than it used to be, but someone can buy at a low price a Sansui of say 20 watts,or 30 watts, that will do the job for headphones and desktop speakers, with almost the same organic imaging,detailed, tubey sound all across the board.... For example the Sansui AU 222....Or the AU-217...They are many low cost options and top amplifier, outside sansui in the vintage market, like you already rightly said...

Me for discovering this gem i have now, i have read all there is to read for thousand hours.... Miracles does not happen often without work , and I cannot listen to anything before buying here where i live ...

I think you are right to all counts except perhaps one for me...:ksc75smile: I think that you dont have listened to the same AKG K 340 or one like mine, in a completely cleaned environment and adequately damped system,headphones included;there is no comparison between the sound of an AKG K 340 nude and mine,proof is nobody will ever give them to sale so low like they are being sold now, probably because their owners never listen to them at the level of their real potential sound,also they compete so much then with higher cans that to sell them, i think this is the only reason; if they crush for me forever my hifiman he 400,and my 2 stax, i think they certainly compete to the he-500.... Sure i can upgrade with stax 007.or 009, i am not so sure with stax L700 or L500...or i can upgrade with some other cans more than 1000 bucks, but joy has his price sometimes and sometimes you enjoy what you have if you are already more than happy, by the way my wife need an upgrade also, but i enjoy her so much that i dont give a damn to some possible upgrade, too costly!...:ksc75smile:Except for the AKG , your advices,and remarks are spot on i think and useful to me and to all.... I thank you friendly...My Best...:L3000:
 
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Nov 21, 2017 at 11:16 AM Post #89 of 272
I doubt this can be answered at a philosophical level. to me a pair of ok near field powered speakers fed by a 100$ DAC and calibrated with some of the less expensive solutions(minidsp, sonarwork....), would most likely provide a sound of better overall fidelity(so hard to define that though) than the most expensive headphone/amp/DAC combination. so you see I've already shifted the goal post so much just by looking at the idea of good sound differently, and getting away from situations where even the transducers would need to cost more than 1000$ to be considered really good.
I'd put money on trying to get a proper frequency response as it's the most obvious and significant for most listeners. it also was demonstrated many times that sound signature are hardly correlated with price so that's good for us. and of course EQ could save the day for small problems of an otherwise proper response. the rest in proportion can require a lot of money for stuff that aren't even always noticeable. which is not cost effective and not good in this particular scenario where money is strictly limited. many people have a blast listening to gears with more than 1%THD. even in very high end gears, so should fidelity actually be a criteria? if it is we'd need to put actual numbers on what is supposed to define a "top audiophile experience". it would bring us to a second issue which is having people testing combinations and measuring that they comply to the standard we have decided upon. but at least we'd have the potential to reach a result.

otherwise we're stuck to I think vs he thinks.
 
Nov 21, 2017 at 5:04 PM Post #90 of 272
I think though your goals are noble, I am a little skeptical of a few things.
What does top mean? You mentioned you don't think you can get $100,000 experience. But for me a "top" quality system that's within reach may be say 10 grand. Or even 5-10 grand.
Having said that, I think it's still hard to see this top happening or diminishing returns starting at $1000.

Though there are some good older amps and good older speakers that can give you surprisingly nice sound, for me, I don't know if that's the route you would need for a really good audiophile experience. The vintage amps I've listened to have lacked for some things, namely a certain level of left to right integration, speed, and a slightly off tone. The vintage speakers suffered from similar issues - usually a thin mid range or a slightly harsh treble. Something to do with top to bottom coherence. I'm not saying that's going to be true of everything. Just my experience with them.
The other question is do you dedicate it to a headphone rig or do you do it for a speaker rig? And if a speaker rig, a book shelf rig will give something up in the weight and size of the soundstage section to a larger tower unit. But at the level of price, unless you are looking used, a lot of the tower and bookshelf units have less than high resolution tweeters. Like take the KEF LS50. Highly touted, dissapointing tweeter in performance. So there are a lot of challenges for sure. But they are not insurmountable. You just have to shop smart.

I think the key take away from this thread is that you genuinely CAN have really good quality sound for less than a $1000. And that's important. As people get discouraged in this hobby. And it's important to know you can still have fantastic sound.
Heck for
$30 Behringer UCA 202
$400 Airmotiv 4s (or used for about $250)
You can get really amazing sound imo.
 
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