[SilverEars]

I find that the general characteristic of iFi BL is boosted low treble to reach toward shrill. Very surprising given how popular it was, and popularity doesn't correlate to performance or preference. Mojo reaches a better balance in comparison.

 

[garbulky]

Well the $1000 point is a very tough cut off point.
First thing that stands out to me is that, no, this is not the point of diminishing returns. I used to think that diminishing returns starts early but they don't.
However what is true that - at least for speaker systems - diminishing returns are absolutely true around the 1 grand point and especially true for $2 grand to $2500 point if you don't shop smart!
I've seen a good amount of high priced stuff in the mid and high end. Imo a lot of the higher priced stuff can be either not really that great or can be equally performed with smart purchases on cheaper gear.

For instance Martin Logan's motion speakers are really nice sounding units. Their much pricer impressions not near worth the increase. Same goes for some higher end B&W Sonus Faber, Mcintosh stuff I've heard. Sure they sound good but I really have heard very similar sounds at much cheaper prices.
As a side note because of the OP's interest in LH labs - I have heard the Geek Pulse. Though it did have a certain level of resolution and a very good headphone amp, overall it wasn't as good as a much cheaper dac I tried. For me. I know somebody that disagrees though.


BUT that doesn't mean that diminishing value starts early. It just means you're not shopping right. You can get stunning improvements if you do. So don't be fooled by people saying one spends thousands more for only a 10% difference. Not true.
My system is about 4-5 grand and the most recent addition was a set of Emotiva XPA-1 gen 2 monoblocks in balanced mode and copious room treatments. The sound increase was obvious and surprising. So even at the 4-5 grand point, you can get worthwhile improvements that are not diminishing.

So the good news is at about $1000 there is some really smart buys.
I'll present the pricey version and the budget version.
Pricey reccomended version:
Headphones:
the HD6xx is a great buy or a used sennheiser HD600: APPROX $250.

Emotiva Basx A-100: $230
The headphone amp here should absolutely be the Emotiva Basx A-100. A true match made in heaven for these headphones. I thought with the jumpers bypassed to allow direct drive this unleashed the amps true potential. The value on this headphone amp cannot be understated. The fact that it's also a pretty impressive speaker amp is a huge bonus.


The DAC.
DC-1 $500
The best DAC I've heard overall has been the Emotiva DC-1. Fantastic unit with tons of resolution. Imo its resolving power beat the Schiit Gungnir Multibit - though the multibit was able to outdo it in some other ways.
That's $500 very well spent imo. Its resolution and very natural tone can really shine on the HD600.
And that's it.

2 channel Speakers:
This is harder because buying a good amp means spending most of your budget on electronics. So I suggest powered speakers.
Emotiva DC-1 $500
Emotiva Airmotiv 5s $500
Coming in the door with copious punchy bass and a very resolving sound with its AMT tweeter. Just resolution all around.
Can be used as main speakers in a small living room as well.

ATS acoustics room treatment - one panel. I prefer mine behind me at head level. Other configurations possible. $55
https://www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html
It's $55 + shipping. Yes room treatments sound strange and unusual. Yes it's really needed.
Tot price : $1070

Alternative amp version
Audioquest dragonfly red (to lower price) $100
Emotiva Bas a-100 used as speaker amp $230
Some set of Axiom Audio speakers like the m50 tower, M5HP bookshelf or better yet USED axiom towers. $1000
Approx $1500-1600

Budget version
Headphones:
Audioquest Dragonfly Red $100
AKG ATH M50 headphones. $150 Note if you have the money go for the HD600.
Headphone amp
Emotiva Basx A-100 with the jumpers engaged (these headphones are pretty darn efficient.) $229
Tot price: $480

Speakers:
Audioquest Dragonfly Red $100
Emotiva airmotiv 4 or 4s used - approx $250
Ats Acoustic panel: $55
https://www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html
A ridiculous $400
Find a better speaker setup for that price. Go ahead, I'll wait!

 

[SilverEars]

@garbulky

There is a difference beyond dimishing returns when comparing their lowend to higher end Martin Logan. Personally wouldn't recommend going Martin Logan if looking for value.

I would not recommend the small usb sources like Audiofly or Centrance, it's better to find alternatives or go a little bit more in pricing for better gear. Audiofly is really nothing special. Getting a good amp that drives well is of higher importance.

 

[garbulky]

@garbulky

There is a difference beyond dimishing returns when comparing their lowend to higher end Martin Logan. Personally wouldn't recommend going Martin Logan if looking for value.

I would not recommend the small usb sources like Audiofly or Centrance, it's better to find alternatives or go a little bit more in pricing for better gear. Audiofly is really nothing special. Getting a good amp that drives well is of higher importance.

I've heard a few ML models. Their electrostats don't quite float my boat. The Motion speaker though is quite surprising. Maybe a tad light on bass by a hair but overall quite nice. My current speaker of choice is the axiom m80 for value and sound. When powered by beefy amplification and very careful setup, it is surprising what it can do. I've heard it in sub optimal setups where it merely sounded okay but get it right and it can be quite the pleasant experience.

I also don't like the experience provided by USB connections. I'm not ruling it out but I still haven't heard a good implementation.
I currently use a Digital Times BNC output. But I have to be realistic, most people these days are using their laptops with USB. Even PCs are quickly going the way of the Dodo as everybody uses phones nowadays.

However the point was to get within the price range and go as budget as possible. So if you had to go real budget the Dragonfly Red is an interesting find imo. I've heard their previous versions and even though they were okay they lacked in important ways - usually in the treble and soundstage coherence. The red is a very nice overall improvement over their previous stuff while coming in cheap. You get a smooth resolving sound which is close to that of an Emotiva DC-1. That's why I tried to give two different price ranges. The pricey 1k system and the budget system.
I haven't heard the Chord Mojo but my friend has a Hugo that I'd like to listen to.

 

[richard51]

Well the $1000 point is a very tough cut off point.
First thing that stands out to me is that, no, this is not the point of diminishing returns. I used to think that diminishing returns starts early but they don't.
However what is true that - at least for speaker systems - diminishing returns are absolutely true around the 1 grand point and especially true for $2 grand to $2500 point if you don't shop smart!
I've seen a good amount of high priced stuff in the mid and high end. Imo a lot of the higher priced stuff can be either not really that great or can be equally performed with smart purchases on cheaper gear.

For instance Martin Logan's motion speakers are really nice sounding units. Their much pricer impressions not near worth the increase. Same goes for some higher end B&W Sonus Faber, Mcintosh stuff I've heard. Sure they sound good but I really have heard very similar sounds at much cheaper prices.
As a side note because of the OP's interest in LH labs - I have heard the Geek Pulse. Though it did have a certain level of resolution and a very good headphone amp, overall it wasn't as good as a much cheaper dac I tried. For me. I know somebody that disagrees though.


BUT that doesn't mean that diminishing value starts early. It just means you're not shopping right. You can get stunning improvements if you do. So don't be fooled by people saying one spends thousands more for only a 10% difference. Not true.
My system is about 4-5 grand and the most recent addition was a set of Emotiva XPA-1 gen 2 monoblocks in balanced mode and copious room treatments. The sound increase was obvious and surprising. So even at the 4-5 grand point, you can get worthwhile improvements that are not diminishing.

So the good news is at about $1000 there is some really smart buys.
I'll present the pricey version and the budget version.
Pricey reccomended version:
Headphones:
the HD6xx is a great buy or a used sennheiser HD600: APPROX $250.

Emotiva Basx A-100: $230
The headphone amp here should absolutely be the Emotiva Basx A-100. A true match made in heaven for these headphones. I thought with the jumpers bypassed to allow direct drive this unleashed the amps true potential. The value on this headphone amp cannot be understated. The fact that it's also a pretty impressive speaker amp is a huge bonus.


The DAC.
DC-1 $500
The best DAC I've heard overall has been the Emotiva DC-1. Fantastic unit with tons of resolution. Imo its resolving power beat the Schiit Gungnir Multibit - though the multibit was able to outdo it in some other ways.
That's $500 very well spent imo. Its resolution and very natural tone can really shine on the HD600.
And that's it.

2 channel Speakers:
This is harder because buying a good amp means spending most of your budget on electronics. So I suggest powered speakers.
Emotiva DC-1 $500
Emotiva Airmotiv 5s $500
Coming in the door with copious punchy bass and a very resolving sound with its AMT tweeter. Just resolution all around.
Can be used as main speakers in a small living room as well.

ATS acoustics room treatment - one panel. I prefer mine behind me at head level. Other configurations possible. $55
https://www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html
It's $55 + shipping. Yes room treatments sound strange and unusual. Yes it's really needed.
Tot price : $1070

Alternative amp version
Audioquest dragonfly red (to lower price) $100
Emotiva Bas a-100 used as speaker amp $230
Some set of Axiom Audio speakers like the m50 tower, M5HP bookshelf or better yet USED axiom towers. $1000
Approx $1500-1600

Budget version
Headphones:
Audioquest Dragonfly Red $100
AKG ATH M50 headphones. $150 Note if you have the money go for the HD600.
Headphone amp
Emotiva Basx A-100 with the jumpers engaged (these headphones are pretty darn efficient.) $229
Tot price: $480

Speakers:
Audioquest Dragonfly Red $100
Emotiva airmotiv 4 or 4s used - approx $250
Ats Acoustic panel: $55
https://www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html
A ridiculous $400
Find a better speaker setup for that price. Go ahead, I'll wait!

Thank you very much for your great contribution ....Very much articulated thoughtful remarks from your lived experience...I am sure some people will digest this food for audio thoughts....

I understand your astute observation that my assumption about the convergence of the point of diminishing returns and the point of the first great AWE moment was only that, a convergence, not a fusion, i concur with your opinion that there is more time or distance between these 2 points than what meets the eye at first, sure we need time to learn to buy the best products...I really like your observations....
But you seems to forget when you advise about different solutions and synergetic system, that under that symbolic 1000 bucks, it is possible to buy VINTAGE gear, that vintage were indeed the TOTL of the past...For example for exactly that amount of 400 bucks i know for a fact that my own system, described in my signature, will be over your last suggestion in audio quality, only because buying vintage,for the same price or less, i bought TOTL pieces of gear, not entry level contemporary one, then buying vintage can push someone after his first purchase very near, in the immediate vicinity of the point of diminishing returns ... But i am conscious that buying vintage implicate other risks and personal decisions,and other needs, i dont want to impose one solution... We are all different, not in the same age, with many different needs, and my thread is only there to partake thinking about our own audio history and how to improve it ,then all suggestions are welcome and food for thought, useful for one or the other....... One thing is certain your post is very interesting to read and to think about.... Thanks very much....

note: You are absolutely right about room treatment, even for nearfield listening in my case.... Room treatment for speakers is an upgrade that beat many other possible upgrades purchase....I make mine with my ears, and used materials or very cheap one , all in all for 50 dollars all included.... I dont pretend that my solution are better than your panels suggestions, possibly not, but for a ridiculous amount, that transform the sound of my speakers in way better one, even in my nearfield experience....I hope that newcomers in audio will experiment that...

Second note: My own actual system cost me 400 us dollars, dac, speakers, headphones,all included, and except for the NOS dac( one of the best quality/price ratio possible), a contemporary one piece of gear that can be purchase around 100 with luck on ebay,(i pay it 20 bucks) the headphone and speakers are TOTL of the year 1989 for the speakers and 1978 for the amplifier, and not entry level.... But all is relative, some people buy 100,000 dollars systems or more, at this level of expanse my system is entry level not TOTL anymore...My symbolic cut-off is 1000 bucks and the reason is to also draw a line for the interest of the majority of audiophiles and not for the few that can afford anything and are not interested in the least in cheap solutions like ours here...

In the last hour which buy the better system with the better quality/price ratio is very often more the thinking brain than only the bank account...

 

[AverageGuyNC]

if going for a (new) headphone setup..

r2r 11 $350+shipping
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R11/R2R11EN.htm

Audeze lcd2c $600
https://www.audeze.com/products/lcd-collection/lcd2-classic

 

[richard51]

It seens promising ...Thanks But can you say in which way you know that this pairing will give an audiophile first experience near the point of diminishing returns perhaps ?

if going for a (new) headphone setup..

r2r 11 $350+shipping
http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R11/R2R11EN.htm

Audeze lcd2c $600
https://www.audeze.com/products/lcd-collection/lcd2-classic

 

[AverageGuyNC]

Well I'm going only on the many positive reviews on the audio gd r2r 11 amp and dac. I never had one, but it's supposed to be about the best in that price range. I bought a Jotunheim (great amp) with dac a while back, and this is supposed to have about as good of an amp and a better dac. For cheaper.

I have an Audeze lcd2 and think it's a great choice. And the amp should work great with it going by specs.

Though, if you went with used stuff, the Fostex th900 is amazing and can be found for around 700 to 800 used. Maybe less. I think you will have to spend well over a grand to beat it even if you bought used.

 

[SilverEars]

Well I'm going only on the many positive reviews on the audio gd r2r 11 amp and dac. I never had one, but it's supposed to be about the best in that price range. I bought a Jotunheim (great amp) with dac a while back, and this is supposed to have about as good of an amp and a better dac. For cheaper.

Is there a way to audition it from a US distributer? R2R DAC sounds interesting, but also they don't measure all that well compared to IC based DACs from what I gather.

Do you know if people generally have positive experiences driving planars? I'm looking to find a good source for my HE1000 as well.

 

[AverageGuyNC]

No USA distributors that I'm aware of. Maybe someone on here has one that lives in your area, but that's a long shot.

R2R is the big thing right now I thought? Only thing as good is maybe FPGA, but I'm no expert.

Planars should not be a problem. I'd look on here for it or similar products. Note the master 11/he 11 is a big step up in price and probably quality, so don't confuse them. YouTube has plenty of reviews too.

 

[knopi]

I agree Audeze LCD2 from second hand can be for many end headphone. I had LCD2 in past and even with their many shortcomings (for my taste warmer, necessary neutral brighter system, I had one of the first versions, LCD2 2016 have hopefully better tune) I did not think about upgrades in that time. But I sold them becouse I was curious about more free sound better tuning performance HEK, LCDX. But at the end becouse of headphone sky rocket prices I bought speaker system instead 2 years ago.

If sombody wants cheaper I can also recomends HD600 (news like HE4xx, HD660S looks like great buy as well). And even more cheaper Alessandro with MS1000 mod is very fine interesting listen with cheap little dac/amps.

For headphone amps there is some cheap ugly diy or semi diy amps around $500 like CustomWorks Hypa 1 which I can recomend. And as regards DAC there is many small cheaper dacs like O2 dac. For harder drive headphone I would always recomend separate amp, disagree that Mojo can drive them ideal, fine useful yes but not ideal.

Also agree with member ubs28.

 

[stacksmasher]

Yep, I carry a DX 90 with my Mojo and CIEM's and its an amazingly portable setup! If I know Ill be streaming via wifi sometimes Ill run the Mojo straight off my phone and it still sounds great!

Yes I do believe it sounds as good in it’s own way, that what I listed was my actual system. The reason for the different gear in my signature is not because I wanted upgrade.

The short story is it was the best I heard with HD650 but I worked long hours and spending more time away from home so less time with the desktop set up, I sold everything off and then spent a while searching for a portable solution to match the desktop. I found out it costs alot more money to get an IEM that competes at the same level as headphone performance. It took IE800S to make me more satisfied to being strictly portable. My new rig is better than before but it took a hell of a lot more money to make it happen.

 

[rawrster]

I'm doing something similar to the thread title as I'm getting back into full sized however unwilling to spend big bucks on it for now.

So far I've spent around $500. I bought a Yulong d100 ii dac/amp and a hifiman he560. I have $500 left at this 1k price range to get a good amp if I wanted to do so. I don' think an amp less than that will be a significant enough improvement over the internal amp.

 

[jcn3]

1. Stax L300 + SRM252S ($620)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-stax-l300-srm-252s-120v-u-s-version.865063/
Used Chord Mojo ($350)

i'm admittedly biased towards stax equipment -- this is a super suggestion. i couldn't believe how much my listening experience became more immersive when i moved from hd600s (very good headphones -- i do miss them at times) to stax sr-404s.

 

[garbulky]

Thank you very much for your great contribution ....Very much articulated thoughtful remarks from your lived experience...I am sure some people will digest this food for audio thoughts....

I understand your astute observation that my assumption about the convergence of the point of diminishing returns and the point of the first great AWE moment was only that, a convergence, not a fusion, i concur with your opinion that there is more time or distance between these 2 points than what meets the eye at first, sure we need time to learn to buy the best products...I really like your observations....
But you seems to forget when you advise about different solutions and synergetic system, that under that symbolic 1000 bucks, it is possible to buy VINTAGE gear, that vintage were indeed the TOTL of the past...For example for exactly that amount of 400 bucks i know for a fact that my own system, described in my signature, will be over your last suggestion in audio quality, only because buying vintage,for the same price or less, i bought TOTL pieces of gear, not entry level contemporary one, then buying vintage can push someone after his first purchase very near, in the immediate vicinity of the point of diminishing returns ... But i am conscious that buying vintage implicate other risks and personal decisions,and other needs, i dont want to impose one solution... We are all different, not in the same age, with many different needs, and my thread is only there to partake thinking about our own audio history and how to improve it ,then all suggestions are welcome and food for thought, useful for one or the other....... One thing is certain your post is very interesting to read and to think about.... Thanks very much....

note: You are absolutely right about room treatment, even for nearfield listening in my case.... Room treatment for speakers is an upgrade that beat many other possible upgrades purchase....I make mine with my ears, and used materials or very cheap one , all in all for 50 dollars all included.... I dont pretend that my solution are better than your panels suggestions, possibly not, but for a ridiculous amount, that transform the sound of my speakers in way better one, even in my nearfield experience....I hope that newcomers in audio will experiment that...

Second note: My own actual system cost me 400 us dollars, dac, speakers, headphones,all included, and except for the NOS dac( one of the best quality/price ratio possible), a contemporary one piece of gear that can be purchase around 100 with luck on ebay,(i pay it 20 bucks) the headphone and speakers are TOTL of the year 1989 for the speakers and 1978 for the amplifier, and not entry level.... But all is relative, some people buy 100,000 dollars systems or more, at this level of expanse my system is entry level not TOTL anymore...My symbolic cut-off is 1000 bucks and the reason is to also draw a line for the interest of the majority of audiophiles and not for the few that can afford anything and are not interested in the least in cheap solutions like ours here...

In the last hour which buy the better system with the better quality/price ratio is very often more the thinking brain than only the bank account...

Your DAC is quite interesting. It's a multibit r2r battery powered dac. I haven't heard Mission speakers but googling their picture tells me they look great.
You're right about some vintage speakers. Some of them can sound surprisingly good. I heard a pair of Dhalquist DQ-10 stacked and I couldn't believe I was hearing an ancient speaker. They were really quite good.

^^That's the non stacked version.
I also heard a set of Thiel CS5i speakers. These were Thiels flagship and they still are but discontinued from back in the day.
Absolutely stunning. Some of the best speakers I've heard. Of course a pair even now would set you back a good amount of cash because they are made out of granite!

I know somebody who has these infnity IRS speakers. Unfortunately I never got to hear them. I can only imagine how they must sound.

However some of the old audio greats aren't quite as good as one would expect when reading the press materials of the day. I was never impressed with the Klipsch Lascalas and heresey's for instance.