[Justin Uthadude]

I love this thread. I believe it exemplifies the essence of Head-Fi. As a newbie, it is a great learning experience. It helps me to better get a grasp on ‘what can I expect to hear?’ I have a pair of Grado SR60’s. I have listened to them plugged directly into my Sansa Clip, powered with a mini3, and driven by a Millet Hybrid. I have some small basis of reference for ‘better’. In no case did I find them unlistenable. I just got a pair of K501’s. The story is much different. Forget the clip and mini3, but the Millet is nice. That particular set of phones versus amp requires that matching some people are talking about. (light goes on). This is an important lesson to know if I’m considering a pair of hp’s that are generally acknowledged to be hard to power.

On the other hand, Uncle Erik has a Zana Deux. Whether he tells me my Millet is ‘unlistenable’ or ‘ok, but could be much better’, what am I to think much better sounds like? Going from regular gas to premium in your Porsche? Going from 6 cylinder to V8 in your Mustang? Or going from VW to Viper? This is where a newbie like me needs to look at Erik’s past and present equipment, what music he listens to, and my impression of to what value do I attach to his opinion based on his past posts. (for the record-high)

Truthfully, I hope for VW to Viper, expect 6cyl to V8, and pray that the regular to premium diminishing returns haven’t already started at the respectable but not respected Millet Hybrid. I enjoy the journey. I hope for many more ‘Holy crap Batman’s , now I know what they’re talking abouts along the way. In two of my other hobbies (astronomy & golf), which are subjective, gear/toy heavy pursuits like audio, much of the fun went away once I had everything I wanted and not much left to buy/try except out of curiosity.

I’m still lurking and evaluating my next experiment: HD600 or DT880. Keep up the posting y’all, I’m a mental sponge. Isn’t this a great time in history to be listening to music?

 

[gbacic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah and they also listen to $5 CDs and sit in a $50 chair while listening... What cheek!

haha

Audiophile power cables make me laugh.

The Lessloss Blackbody on the other hand...

 

[CrackBerry9000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah and they also listen to $5 CDs and sit in a $50 chair while listening... What cheek!

Thanks for making my point for me. Never spend more than 50 dollars for any piece of audio equipment because anything more expensive than the chair your sitting on is surely a waste of money. Good advice for everyone in the community to consider when looking to buy gear.

I can't wait for someone to tell me how much they spent on a good chair.

 

[The Monkey]

Is there any way we can keep the cable nonsense out of this thread? I'm betting we can't.

 

[plonter]

I think that in order to get good sound, a certain amount of money has got to be spent...let's say just for the discuttion: 600$ top for a good dedicated amp and another 600-700$ for a decent dac. I would not invest a lot of money in a digital transport, this is one of the things IMO that we can go cheap...like a cheap dvd or a non expensive cd player. also,mid prices interconnects can do the trick.

 

[HD-5000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think that in order to get good sound, a certain amount of money has got to be spent...let's say just for the discuttion: 600$ top for a good dedicated amp and another 600-700$ for a decent dac. I would not invest a lot of money in a digital transport, this is one of the things IMO that we can go cheap...like a cheap dvd or a non expensive cd player. also,mid prices interconnects can do the trick.

Foolish advice. Tsk tsk.

 

[plonter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD-5000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Foolish advice. Tsk tsk.

it was more an opinion on how I look at things rather than advice.
you can not agree with me, like probably many other will not, but there is a certain way of telling your opinion in a more polite way imo.

anyway..there arte probably amps even at the 300-400$ price range that could be excelent with certain headphones, but from my experience, for a high quality electronics and PSU you need to pay for, and a 600-700$ for a good amp is not a lot. any gear beyond that price,will give a rather little improvement for a lot of money...this is the true and everybody makes his own judgement in investing in a "high-end" gear or not. again,it is very much depends on the headphones/speakers as certain demends a litte more than others and have much more potential.

 

[Chef]

Too many people have no conception of how audio equipment works and spend absurd amounts of money in ignorance. An amplifier will only increase the amplitude of your signal. That's what a well designed amp does (and it doesn't cost much to get one). If you need your music louder, that's fine, but generally even an iPod can drive headphones (including HD650) to dangerous, undistorted levels.

I'd like to see head-fi'ers start investing in SPL meters and seeing if the volumes they're demanding are even remotely safe. So called 'golden ears' here probably have worse hearing than the general public given their listen habits.

 

[Lavcat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well this all sounds interesting, but seriously, no offense, why all the focus to turn a sound card into something it isn't (a dedicated headphone amp)?

Some people like to watch movies from a dedicated Blu-ray player. Others prefer to watch Blu-rays on their computer. For seventeen years I earned my living making computer cameras. Other vendors made dedicated cameras that with some expense and effort could be interfaced to a computer. You make dedicated headphone amps. Other people make sound cards.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Too many people have no conception of how audio equipment works and spend absurd amounts of money in ignorance. An amplifier will only increase the amplitude of your signal. That's what a well designed amp does (and it doesn't cost much to get one). If you need your music louder, that's fine, but generally even an iPod can drive headphones (including HD650) to dangerous, undistorted levels. I'd like to see head-fi'ers start investing in SPL meters and seeing if the volumes they're demanding are even remotely safe. So called 'golden ears' here probably have worse hearing than the general public given their listen habits.

I haven't felt like calling a post rubbish until now. I guess it's the authority that went along with it. bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[Parafeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrackBerry9000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hopefully you figure out your 650 headphones, I know I have.

System matching, synergy, power conditioning, cables...... . Yes, replacing the "stock" cable helps a lot with the 650, (I listened to several before settling on the relatively cheap Cardas cable), but compared to other phones (even "lower" range Senn models) it is still veiled! I've already figured that out.

 

[Chef]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't felt like calling a post rubbish until now. I guess it's the authority that went along with it. bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It's rubbish that an amplifier is only designed to increase the amplitude of a signal. Okay, sir.

 

[Ra97oR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's rubbish that an amplifier is only designed to increase the amplitude of a signal. Okay, sir.

What amp have you ever tried? What headphones?

Quite frankly you are talking real BS, sir.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef /img/forum/go_quote.gif Too many people have no conception of how audio equipment works and spend absurd amounts of money in ignorance. An amplifier will only increase the amplitude of your signal. That's what a well designed amp does (and it doesn't cost much to get one). If you need your music louder, that's fine, but generally even an iPod can drive headphones (including HD650) to dangerous, undistorted levels. I'd like to see head-fi'ers start investing in SPL meters and seeing if the volumes they're demanding are even remotely safe. So called 'golden ears' here probably have worse hearing than the general public given their listen habits.

Actually, a lot of head-fiers I know have SPL meters mostly so they can volume match when testing gear. Most head-fiers I know also listen at lower volumes than the general public. That's one of the benefits at having quality gear: you don't need to turn up the volume to actually hear the music well. I listen lower than most people I know, which is exactly why I need a quality amp as it allows me to hear the full-spectrum of music at very low volumes. With most headphones I've owned, a lot of music is lost at low volumes without appropriate amplification, and channel imbalances are common. Again, for the 100th time, proper amplification is not just making things loud, nor does it need to be about large sums of money, though sometimes it helps, depending what you're trying to drive.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Justin, the Millett Hybrid is a fun little amp.

I built one a few years ago and I like them.

Like Boomana pointed out, amplification is not about power. If we want to go with a car analogy, a 500HP car might sound impressive. But if it has cable-operated brakes and not much suspension, it isn't going to be much fun to drive. An amp is also the equivalent of the brakes and suspension of a car.

Personally, I'm into handling. My last car was a dead stock RX-7. Its braking and handling let me demolish cars with much more horsepower. The current car is a stock tC with TRD suspension. Again, the brakes and handling let me outrun a SUV with twice the horsepower.

Part of the problem is that people really do not understand what amps do. An even bigger problem is that people make no effort to understand what an amp does. They buy on hype and word of mouth without understanding what they bought.

Finesse has a much bigger role to play than simply the power output. One amp I'm building (when I am not stuck in the office as I am today) is a fairly low powered item with 417A tubes. However, it has a slick, smooth power supply and wonderful Lundahl output transformers. The power supply is tube rectified and has three chokes to ensure smooth, ripple-free DC to the circuit. In addition to the tubes and output transformers, it only has one cap and one resistor in the amp circuit. I'm putting in a stepped attenuator, as well.

The parts for this amp ran just about $1,100, not including the case. It'll probably be $1,500 total when complete. If I bought large quantities of parts, I might be able to get costs down to $1,200 or so. It is not cheap to build a quality amplifier. I don't know of any other way to get a power supply this good for less - otherwise, I would have spent less.

If you factor in labor, tools, overhead, taxes, and every other business cost, it would be tough to make a profit on an amp like this for less than maybe $3,000.

Performance aside, you also have to look at reliability and build quality. Sure, you can find some cheaper transformers, but how much will you save if the insulation on the coils melts and you have to replace it? Not all iron is created equal and you might very well have a reliability issue if you shave dollars.

I also believe in solid construction. I spend a lot of time digging out individual terminal points out of a electronics store. For those, you have to drill a hole then mount the point. They're individual points, so you need two to mount a resistor.

Some might call this overkill. However, if a capacitor goes bad, I can have it out and replaced in 10 or 15 minutes. If you use a PCB, that can take considerably longer and might not even be possible if the PCB scorches and destroys some traces. Then, you'd be stuck with either replacing the PCB or performing heavy surgery that will take hours and hours.

Anyhow, if you want something that performs well and is long-term reliable, you have to put time and money into it. There aren't any shortcuts. Someone might be happy with cheap parts, cheap construction and marginal performance, but that is not an excuse to disregard what is good. I just don't think many people here understand what it takes to have a good amp. If they did, we wouldn'thave these kinds of arguments.