To SACD or not to SACD, that is the question.
Jul 21, 2010 at 5:17 PM Post #46 of 133


Quote:
several recordings however were High res ! - check the listings and details for their playlist, many were certified pure DSD or 24/96 PCM, admittedly not all, but many, but nobody was able to hear the degradation from **these** discs going to 16/44.1
 

 
The real problem is that the authors' work is poor scientific method. 
(a) it is a clear failure to use ANY discs in a hi-rez test that are not hi-rez to start with. About half of discs used were not even hi-rez. 
(b) Yes - some discs were hi-rez ... but they averaged out the hi-rez discs against the blancs.
(c) Actually, one of their testers correctly identified the SACD source 8 out of 10 times in the ABX tests.  And therein lies the second major flaw of procedural science with that paper ... the authors' didn't re-test people who were successful to find if the results were reproducible ... they just averaged out any successes against the fails / blanc discs.
 
It's a bit surprising that this got past referees. 
 
Jul 21, 2010 at 5:49 PM Post #47 of 133
I disagree.  Sound is sound.  If you take the same source sound, and render it digitally using different sampling rates, it's still an approximation of the same sound.  That's all digitization and sampling rates are--an approximation of analog sound.  I would even venture to say that if you take an absolutely crap recording and render it in 24/96 and at 16/44.1, if 24/96 is TRULY BETTER, you'd be able to hear all the flaws much better than at 16/44.1.  It's the same notion that EVERYONE here says that a good amp and speakers reveals a poor source better than a mid-level amp and speakers.  It's the same as you can see more flaws in film on a DVD than VHS, and more flaws on a Blu-ray than a DVD.  Heck, film grain is so much more noticeable on Blu-ray than DVD because it is a better source with better encoding of a higher resolution.  So, why all of a sudden are SACDs suddenly immune to this?  If the source tape is really bad, you should be able to hear more of the flaws, including tape hiss, etc, on a SACD than regular CD if SACD is truly better.  But, the reality is the human ear can't.  Those supposedly "non-high def recordings" show that.  The fact is that redbook CD frequency is already beyond the sensitivity of the human ear threshold, so sampling sound at a higher rate adds no benefit.  
 
For people that claim they can hear a difference between a SACD and a different CD of the same recording, I agree that it might be possible.  But, this is due to the mastering of the material and not the sampling frequency.  Many aspects go into mastering--volume and tone, for instance.  If you take one SACD and play it at its native frequency and then again at a downsampled frequency, you won't be able to hear the difference.  If you believe you can, I've got a great deal on a beach front timeshare in Reno I'll let you in on.

 
Quote:
The real problem is that the authors' work is poor scientific method. 
(a) it is a clear failure to use ANY discs in a hi-rez test that are not hi-rez to start with. About half of discs used were not even hi-rez. 
(b) Yes - some discs were hi-rez ... but they averaged out the hi-rez discs against the blancs.
(c) Actually, one of their testers correctly identified the SACD source 8 out of 10 times in the ABX tests.  And therein lies the second major flaw of procedural science with that paper ... the authors' didn't re-test people who were successful to find if the results were reproducible ... they just averaged out any successes against the fails / blanc discs.
 
It's a bit surprising that this got past referees. 



 
Jul 21, 2010 at 5:55 PM Post #48 of 133


Quote:
 
The real problem is that the authors' work is poor scientific method. 
(a) it is a clear failure to use ANY discs in a hi-rez test that are not hi-rez to start with. About half of discs used were not even hi-rez. 
(b) Yes - some discs were hi-rez ... but they averaged out the hi-rez discs against the blancs.
(c) Actually, one of their testers correctly identified the SACD source 8 out of 10 times in the ABX tests.  And therein lies the second major flaw of procedural science with that paper ... the authors' didn't re-test people who were successful to find if the results were reproducible ... they just averaged out any successes against the fails / blanc discs.
 
It's a bit surprising that this got past referees. 



8/10 is not quite good enough statistically for P < 0.05, i.e not successful , close, but P = 0.055, the more subjects you have the more you can guess luckily that is why the tests have to be so strict. As someone who has had to submit academic papers for peer review just missing the 5% level is a real drag but you have to play by the rules. Frankly for something like this 20 trials is much better anyway.
 
Jul 21, 2010 at 6:43 PM Post #49 of 133
Much of the listening benefit of SACD discs comes from what they don't do. They consistently have a quieter background & less artifacts than their standard CD counterparts.This & the increased dynamic range results in less fatigue & overall greater satisfaction of your listening session. It's similar to turning off a low-humming fan after having it on for a while & realizing how much it was actually irritating you. Whether that stems from better mastering of the recording itself, or other superior technical aspects of the DSD chain, I can't say for sure. But the differences do exist on the majority.
 
That being said, SACD is & will remain a niche market for classical listeners & those willing to scour for OOP single-layer titles. Fine if that's where your tastes lie, but don't fool yourself into thinking there will be some sort of resurgence of SACD product. Also, the hardware to play them, save for expensive (again, niche) products, will disappear soon enough that I wouldn't invest in the SACD discs now, or pay their premium. The future is clearly in the download arena, with lossless & hi-rez versions available for those of us that require the better quality & are willing to pay for it. I've yet to embrace it yet myself, but the writing is on the wall.
 
Jul 21, 2010 at 6:58 PM Post #50 of 133
Streetlight Records....in the Bay Area?
 
StreetLight Records
 
Ya gotta love em.
 
What titles are you looking for?
 
I just wander the Streetlight Record bin, grab a few and head to the checkout stand as I'm just looking for music to make my ears happy with.  My last couple of grabs ran the gamet of Fleetwood Mac, K.D. Lang and Enya to Thelonious Monk, Eric Dolphy and Miles Davis coupled with a bunch of other eclectic Western artists.
 
I can see from the replies that SACD is a musical hobby all in of itself.  I was falsely under the impression (ignorance) it was simply a plug-n-play pursuit.  I can see I have some musical homework to be doing as you guys thoughtfully share the wisdom of your SACD experience.
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 12:14 AM Post #51 of 133
The future is clearly in the download arena, with lossless & hi-rez versions available for those of us that require the better quality & are willing to pay for it. I've yet to embrace it yet myself, but the writing is on the wall.
 
So, as I'm familiarizing myself with SACD players, recordings and how to get a good SACD deal, what you're writing is that all this effort is in vain as a few years from now, downloads are the quality wave of the future and the SACD library that I did manage to accumulate, is going be time limited out?
 
???
 
To me, what's sweet, walking into a used CD store, not a clue in your head, and walking out potluck.  I like that kind of CD shopping as like Forest Gump and his mamma's box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.
 
"Yeah baby!"
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 2:23 AM Post #52 of 133
All legitimate questions, so I'll try to reply as best as I can.
 
First of all, very short (< 200 milliseconds) sounds of up to 170 db, such as discharging of a firearm, do not cause immediate permanent hearing loss due to rupturing or breakage of middle ear elements, which shows that the middle ear machinery is pretty robust: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=2052.
 
What does cause damage is more prolonged sound of over 120 db (corresponding, evolutionary, to perhaps the loudest sound in nature humans heard before the modern age - the sound of a very close thunder). And of course prolonged exposure to sounds over 85 db can cause permanent damage as well. That hearing damage occurs due to the exhaustion of hair cells and nerve cells in cochlea: http://brneurosci.org/noise.html.
 
As I explained in my previous post, very high amplitudes may appear momentarily (for tens of microseconds to tens of milliseconds) as a result of summation of the "safe level" sine waves. Given that there are 24 or less main frequencies in a practical music recording at any given moment, and assuming that the component waves are all at 96db, the combined amplitude can go - momentarily - up to 123 db, which can still be safely handled by the middle ear machinery.
 
The inner ear is essentially a Fourier transformer, and the sound energy applied to a specific hair cell is just a fraction of the overall energy supplied through the middle ear machinery. In effect, the hair cell only "hears" the frequency band it is anatomically tuned to hear. This also explains why pure sine waves, even of moderate amplitude, are so unpleasant - the whole energy of the signal is concentrated on a narrow subset of hair cells and can overwhelm them.
 
Now, let's see what happens when the amplitude dynamic range is limited to 96db (that is, 16 bit). The sound engineer has two extreme choices and some compromise room in between:
 
(1) Ensure that all summary amplitudes are recorded without clipping, which immediately drops the maximum amplitude of component waves, making the music sound too quiet at normal loudness settings, and also elevating the noise floor relative to the maximum component amplitude;
 
(2)  Compress the dynamic range by clipping the summary amplitudes, which of course distorts the original signal - when transformed into the frequency domain by the inner ear, all kinds of missed frequencies, invalid amplitudes, and phantom frequencies appear - that's where the characteristic "metallic", scratchy sound of over-boosted CD mixes comes from.
 
Combined with inability to capture the high-frequency component frequencies correctly at 44.1 sampling, due to the non-compliance with Nyquist theorem infinite signal length requirement, the 16/44 does pretty poor job of capturing live sound. We need to remember that CD was developed in late 1970-ies, and its designers were severely limited by the capabilities of optics and electronics of that era. Those were days of Apple II, based on 8-bit 1MHz CPU, which retailed for $1290.
 
I once read an extremely technical article, to which unfortunately I couldn't readily find online reference, proving that the threshold of realistic sound recording is somewhere in the vicinity of 20/70, and of course 24/96 is exceeding it. With 24 bits, there is no need to worry about the summary amplitudes clipping, and thus the original frequencies are restored accurately by the inner ear, aided by the higher sample rate that takes care of the non-infinite nature of the signal.
 
Subjectively, SACD provides "natural" dynamic range and clear separation of realistically sounding instruments, with inaudible noise. This is especially noticeable on symphonic music. Of course, sharp hearing and high-quality sound system are required to notice the difference.
 
Quote:
Since you seem knowledgeable in this subject, I'd like to ask the following questions
 
1) As far as I know, there is practically no music reproduction that requires a >96 dB range, if you room is quiet, you'd still have ~ 30 dB background noise, making a reproduced signal of 126 dB unlistenable since it would we too loud. So why would someone need a >16 bit recording for listening to music (I purposely exclude mastering, mixing, producing music).
2) No DAC or ADC has ever shown more than a -130 dB noise floor, or a better than  -120 dB THD+N due to thermal moise, RFI, whatever.., music beyond 20-21 bit is impossible to reproduce.
3) In practice, how often does music go beyond a 96 dB range, ie. if your loudest sound is 130 dB, I would assume softest significant sound is above 34 dB.
 
While 32 or even 64 bit might be useful for internal calculations, shouldn't 16 bit be sufficient for 99.9% of musical material, and 24 bit sufficient for the remaining .1%? Not to mention that the subjective dynamic range increases with proper noise shaping?

 



 
Jul 22, 2010 at 2:39 AM Post #53 of 133
Reminds me of aspartame controversy. It was proven by large double-blind statistically sound studies that its consumption in doses typically occurring in diet drinks is safe for humans. Yet, when a double-blind study was conducted with self-selected people who reported adverse reactions to aspartame, it was solidly proven that indeed this particular group of people does exhibit severe adverse reactions to officially safe doses of it. And when double-blind study was conducted on a group of clinically depressed subjects, the study had to be stopped prematurely because of dangerously increased suicidal tendencies of those to whom aspartame was administered.
 
What I'm leading to is that humans are not some parts produced by an automated factory, or repeatable natural events, to which the traditional statistics readily applies. Due to genetic variations and training, some humans can indeed perceive sound imperfections that "average" person is blissfully unaware of. So the right approach in this case would be to take that person who was 8/10 right, and subject him to a battery of say, 100 tests, where the probability of being 80/100 right just based on luck would be significantly lower. 
 
Quote:
8/10 is not quite good enough statistically for P < 0.05, i.e not successful , close, but P = 0.055, the more subjects you have the more you can guess luckily that is why the tests have to be so strict. As someone who has had to submit academic papers for peer review just missing the 5% level is a real drag but you have to play by the rules. Frankly for something like this 20 trials is much better anyway.



 
Jul 22, 2010 at 2:44 AM Post #54 of 133
Do you read my posts? I went into quite some length explaining why 16/44 is not beyond the sensitivity of human ear. That notion you are promoting is a marketing myth created in late 70-ies and early 80-ies to promote CD sales, which in fact failed to convince the vinyl die-hards, many of whom later discovered the joy of SACD, and will be increasingly discovering the joy of lossless Blu-ray sound.
 
Quote:
I disagree.  Sound is sound.  If you take the same source sound, and render it digitally using different sampling rates, it's still an approximation of the same sound.  That's all digitization and sampling rates are--an approximation of analog sound.  I would even venture to say that if you take an absolutely crap recording and render it in 24/96 and at 16/44.1, if 24/96 is TRULY BETTER, you'd be able to hear all the flaws much better than at 16/44.1.  It's the same notion that EVERYONE here says that a good amp and speakers reveals a poor source better than a mid-level amp and speakers.  It's the same as you can see more flaws in film on a DVD than VHS, and more flaws on a Blu-ray than a DVD.  Heck, film grain is so much more noticeable on Blu-ray than DVD because it is a better source with better encoding of a higher resolution.  So, why all of a sudden are SACDs suddenly immune to this?  If the source tape is really bad, you should be able to hear more of the flaws, including tape hiss, etc, on a SACD than regular CD if SACD is truly better.  But, the reality is the human ear can't.  Those supposedly "non-high def recordings" show that.  The fact is that redbook CD frequency is already beyond the sensitivity of the human ear threshold, so sampling sound at a higher rate adds no benefit.  
 
For people that claim they can hear a difference between a SACD and a different CD of the same recording, I agree that it might be possible.  But, this is due to the mastering of the material and not the sampling frequency.  Many aspects go into mastering--volume and tone, for instance.  If you take one SACD and play it at its native frequency and then again at a downsampled frequency, you won't be able to hear the difference.  If you believe you can, I've got a great deal on a beach front timeshare in Reno I'll let you in on.

 

 



 
Jul 22, 2010 at 3:16 AM Post #55 of 133

 
Quote:
the hardware to play them, save for expensive (again, niche) products, will disappear soon enough ...


lol. New SACD goodies coming out this month:
 
* Sony SCD-XE800:   this is Sony's new mainstream standalone CD player, replacing its CD-only player. About US$400
  http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/07/15/scd-xe800-sony-presents-new-sacd-player/ 
 

 
* Marantz SA-8004  (August 2010)
  http://us.marantz.com/Products/3223.asp
This is an update on the SA-8003 model which just won the EISA 2009/2010 Best Audio Source Product Award
 

 
 
 
* Sony BDP-S1700ES Universal Blu-Ray / SACD / 3D player: About US$400  (August)
http://www.itechnews.net/2010/07/07/sony-bdp-s1700es-3d-blu-ray-player/
 

Actually, the whole new line of Sony Blu-rays support SACD ... BDP-S370, BDP-S470 etc which retail for about US$169 
 
 
* Denon DBP-1611UD Universal Blu-ray / SACD:  About $399  (July / Augsut)

 
 
 
* The new Oppo Special Edition
 

 
 
 
These are just the new mainstream machines out in July / August ...   + lots of much more fancy goodies from the specialised audiophile companies ...
 
Some of the above are multi-channel ... some stereo ... something for everyone :)
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 3:21 AM Post #56 of 133


Quote:
the hardware to play them, save for expensive (again, niche) products, will disappear soon enough ...

 
 
 
lol. New SACD goodies coming out this month:
 
* Sony SCD-XE800:   this is Sony's new mainstream standalone CD player, replacing its CD-only player. About US$400
  http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/07/15/scd-xe800-sony-presents-new-sacd-player/ 
 
 
* Marantz SA-8004
  http://us.marantz.com/Products/3223.asp
This is an update on the SA-8003 model which just won the EISA 2009/2010 Best Audio Source Product Award
 
 
* Sony BDP-S1700ES Universal Blu-Ray / SACD / 3D player: About US$400
http://www.itechnews.net/2010/07/07/sony-bdp-s1700es-3d-blu-ray-player/
 
Actually, the whole new line of Sony Blu-rays support SACD ... BDP-S370, BDP-S470 etc which retail for about US$169 
 
* Denon DBP-1611UD Universal Blu-ray / SACD:  About $399
 
 
* The new Oppo Special Edition
 
These are just the mainstream players ... + lots of more esoteric stuff.
 
Some of the above are multi-channel ... some stereo ... something for everyone :)
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 10:35 AM Post #57 of 133


Quote:
 
I once read an extremely technical article, to which unfortunately I couldn't readily find online reference, proving that the threshold of realistic sound recording is somewhere in the vicinity of 20/70, and of course 24/96 is exceeding it. With 24 bits, there is no need to worry about the summary amplitudes clipping, and thus the original frequencies are restored accurately by the inner ear, aided by the higher sample rate that takes care of the non-infinite nature of the signal. 

 
Probably Bob Stuart of Meridian and the ARA, but his premise is that you absolutely have to be able to play back music routinely at an average level of 120db , yes in that case the difference between 24/96 and 16/44.1 may be apparent during quiet passages as was in fact found in Meyer and Moran at unpleasantly loud levels, he will also tell you for free why DSD is provably crap while he is at it , but this is a quite extreme set of criteria, nort does Bob Stuart's criteria manage to explain why in a very large scale (110 subjects)  DBT study (Blech and Yang, 2005) that only 4 subjects out of 110 (Tonnmeister students using headphones and single instrument samples) were able to distinguish between (the obviously inferior) DSD and high res PCM renderings on the same high quality source material
wink.gif

 
The models are great and interesting but empirical evidence is much more meaningful.

 
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 10:49 AM Post #58 of 133


Quote:
 
What I'm leading to is that humans are not some parts produced by an automated factory, or repeatable natural events, to which the traditional statistics readily applies. Due to genetic variations and training, some humans can indeed perceive sound imperfections that "average" person is blissfully unaware of. So the right approach in this case would be to take that person who was 8/10 right, and subject him to a battery of say, 100 tests, where the probability of being 80/100 right just based on luck would be significantly lower. 
 



Human variation is why you use lots of subjects and when appropriate different conditions, even here some folks so better on codec DBTs than others, no question, but as your sample size increases you are bound to get some lucky coins and I agree that 20 trials or more would have been better, actually 20 would have been statistically strong enough, for instance 16/20 - the same ratio as 8/10 is much less likely to be due to luck.
 
That said, there is nothing stopping Meridian, Philips or Sony from repeaing the experiments , with their budgets it would be loose change, but all the developers of these superior technologies have been shy of rigorous controlled testing 
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 11:06 AM Post #59 of 133
It also sounds like, from what I read in this thread, once you've budget maxed out your system, higher quality recordings are the next logical solution for getting the best out of your system.  And based upon my system requirements, Blu-ray will eventually become the happening thing.
 
Sounds like there's hope in using the installed Blu-ray player as a playback device as more and more music titles comes out in Blu-ray format.  Also, checking out Amazon.com, I see Blu-ray titles are much more affordably priced.
 
Jul 22, 2010 at 12:23 PM Post #60 of 133
Frankly, up until recently I didn't have a need for theoretical justifications of the superiority of SACD over CD. My SACD player (doubles as a DVD player) has a dowsampling feature to ensure compatibility with older receivers. I did my own tests with SACD playing via DSD, and various downsampled rates. I found no audible difference between direct DSD stream and 5.1 24/96 PCM.
 
There is a very noticeable difference between those and 5.1 16/48 (the player can't downsample to 5.1/44), and of course comparison with stereo 16/44 is pointless as the forced 5.1 -> 2 mix is bound to sound awful, no matter the resolution. The difference is that the sophisticated classical music sounds "cartoonish" when downsampled to 16/48, for the lack of better word, just not as open, smooth, and enjoyable as in direct DSD.
 
Since I can't take everyone on this forum and get it to listen to my system, I have to resort to theoretical justifications to prove my point. Reading about this subject and thinking more about it made me firmly convinced that 7.1 24/96 is the best currently available consumer format for live music reproduction. Of course, Lady Gaga's recordings are just fine in 128 MP3 :)

 
Quote:
 
Probably Bob Stuart of Meridian and the ARA, but his premise is that you absolutely have to be able to play back music routinely at an average level of 120db , yes in that case the difference between 24/96 and 16/44.1 may be apparent during quiet passages as was in fact found in Meyer and Moran at unpleasantly loud levels, he will also tell you for free why DSD is provably crap while he is at it , but this is a quite extreme set of criteria, nort does Bob Stuart's criteria manage to explain why in a very large scale (110 subjects)  DBT study (Blech and Yang, 2005) that only 4 subjects out of 110 (Tonnmeister students using headphones and single instrument samples) were able to distinguish between (the obviously inferior) DSD and high res PCM renderings on the same high quality source material
wink.gif

 
The models are great and interesting but empirical evidence is much more meaningful.

 



 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top