To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...

Oct 14, 2022 at 11:12 AM Post #2,041 of 2,192
Speaker spatiality may have problems because for example ITD is omitted. Nothing guarantees that the listener perceives ITD the same way the mixer perceived it in the studio while mixing. This might create phasing issues. For me this doesn't seem to limit enjoyment, since it doesn't limit in crossfeed either, but some people may hear spatiality differently and be annoyed by this.
 
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Oct 14, 2022 at 12:11 PM Post #2,042 of 2,192
I have tried to convince myself that I know this stuff in order to uphold my self-confidence, but it seems I have to AGAIN admit defeat and failure in life.
IMHO, that’s a very shortsighted, absolute and self destructive way of looking at it. No one knows everything so is everyone a failure in life? No, of course not. The other side to this coin is that you clearly know a lot about the issues but have mis-interpreted and dismissed some of what you learnt because you thought it irrelevant. You’re starting to realise that view was incorrect and so you now know more than you did a few days ago. That’s an achievement, not a failure!
Speaker spatiality may have problems because for example ITD is omitted.
I’m not sure what you mean, obviously with speakers you have ITD of the direct sound and of the directional room reflections, so ITD is not omitted.
Nothing guarantees that the listener perceives ITD the same way the mixer perceived it in the studio while mixing.
Absolutely and in fact there’s no guarantee this will be perceived the same way by the SAME mixer in a different studio, even between two top class studios and it’s not just ITD but almost every factor! I was shocked at the difference when I took a mix done in one world class studio to another world class studio. That’s the reason we have the mastering process, mastering engineers check the phase information of the mix, adjust according to their experience and test the master on different equipment. Even recording studios use both near and far field systems and the purpose of mastering isn’t to get the mix to sound great in the mastering studio but to sound as good as possible on a wide range of playback scenarios. This virtually always means some level of compromise.
This might create phasing issues.
Yes it might but it seems the brain is quite good at compensating for such issues in an acoustic environment. For example, it was thought that comb-filter effects were particularly problematic in listening environments but research by Floyd Toole indicated they’re not as bad as previously thought because listeners and engineers can learn/train to compensate, even with quite noticeable comb-filtering.
I think I trained my brain to somehow correct for the imperfections of the PRIR.
That sounds very plausible. There’s limited research on this training/plasticity issue with HRTFs and I should imagine there are difficulties with experiment design. For example, when do you know you’ve fixed improved something or if the subjects have just subconsciously learned to compensate?

G
 
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Oct 14, 2022 at 12:55 PM Post #2,043 of 2,192
I don't mean to sound mean, but I'm here to casually chat about science. I don't want to be held responsible for somebody's self esteem.
 
Oct 14, 2022 at 1:37 PM Post #2,044 of 2,192
IMHO, that’s a very shortsighted, absolute and self destructive way of looking at it. No one knows everything so is everyone a failure in life? No, of course not. The other side to this coin is that you clearly know a lot about the issues but have mis-interpreted and dismissed some of what you learnt because you thought it irrelevant. You’re starting to realise that view was incorrect and so you now know more than you did a few days ago. That’s an achievement, not a failure!
I don't mind not knowing much about things I have not invested time and work on, but crossfeed is something that has taken time and effort. How about all other things I have invested time and effort on? How many false believes and theories do I have with those? Do I really understand anything about US politics for example? Or music theory? Steven Spielberg's directing style?

I’m not sure what you mean, obviously with speakers you have ITD of the direct sound and of the directional room reflections, so ITD is not omitted.
I mean the ITD is not the same in your listening room it is in the mixing room unless the rooms are identical. For example if your room is bigger and less treated acoustically, the reflections will come to your ears later and with different level/spectrum/angle than in the studio. If that doesn't affect spatiality, I don't know what does.

Absolutely and in fact there’s no guarantee this will be perceived the same way by the SAME mixer in a different studio, even between two top class studios and it’s not just ITD but almost every factor! I was shocked at the difference when I took a mix done in one world class studio to another world class studio. That’s the reason we have the mastering process, mastering engineers check the phase information of the mix, adjust according to their experience and test the master on different equipment. Even recording studios use both near and far field systems and the purpose of mastering isn’t to get the mix to sound great in the mastering studio but to sound as good as possible on a wide range of playback scenarios. This virtually always means some level of compromise.
This is how I have understood it. Different playback scenarious give an interpretation of the recordings with strenghts and weaknesses. One room gives nice bass, another room has good diffuse airy treble etc. This is the origin of my attitude of "omitting" factors. Not omitting then can lead to extremely difficult and costly measures to control them for relatively minor benefits. Because of the way my spatial hearing works, crossfeed is to me a "miracle" solution: simple, inexpensive and it gives me major improvements.

The studio where I had the mixing course had near and far field speakers and the difference between them was quite dramatic!

Yes it might but it seems the brain is quite good at compensating for such issues in an acoustic environment. For example, it was thought that comb-filter effects were particularly problematic in listening environments but research by Floyd Toole indicated they’re not as bad as previously thought because listeners and engineers can learn/train to compensate, even with quite noticeable comb-filtering.
I believe so too, hence the mentality of omitting these factors. I believe it is not much different with headphones without acoustic environment. I did think about these things 10 years ago when crossfeed was new to me and I wanted to get a good understanding of what crossfeed does to the signal. The phase difference is too small to create comb-filter effects. The critical octave is about 500-1000 Hz, but even there comb-filtering doesn't happen. In general first order filters are pretty safe, because the phase response isn't so dramatic and simple default crossfeed uses first order filters. Higher order filters create easily massive issues if not used carefully.
 
Oct 14, 2022 at 1:51 PM Post #2,046 of 2,192
Do you think that would make it stop?
 
Oct 14, 2022 at 1:55 PM Post #2,047 of 2,192
I don't mean to sound mean, but I'm here to casually chat about science. I don't want to be held responsible for somebody's self esteem.
Maybe I was too dramatic about it, but the way I am is a result of how experiences in life have shaped my personality. Good self-esteem doesn't just exist. It needs "stuff" to stay alive, positive experiences in life. Acceptance, praise, success, etc. Some people have those more than other people. The most positive experiences in my life recently have nothing to do with this discussion board/crossfeed/audio. It is something so private that I won't share it here.
 
Oct 14, 2022 at 1:55 PM Post #2,048 of 2,192
Now you're responding to posts by Gregorio that you've already replied to?

You are obsessed. Your posts are like kudzu. This isn’t normal, and it can’t end well.

I don't mean to sound mean, but I'm here to casually chat about science. I don't want to be held responsible for somebody's self esteem.

Do you think that would make it stop?

I'm willing to hear your explanation of how these posts are anything more than internet bullying.

Whether it stops or not is not the issue - your responses are.

Edit - apologies to @71 dB for quoting those posts. Hopefully won't need to do it again.
 
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Oct 14, 2022 at 1:57 PM Post #2,049 of 2,192
Oct 14, 2022 at 1:59 PM Post #2,050 of 2,192
Oct 14, 2022 at 3:30 PM Post #2,052 of 2,192
thank you

bfreedma, respect is earned. Ignoring what people say over and over and replying over and over without ever addressing their points doesn't earn respect. It earns a curt dismissal. It doesn't have to be intentional trolling to crap up a thread. It's important to be self aware and consider your audience. We aren't here to talk for our own benefit. We're here to discuss things with others. When it crosses the line over into arguing for arguing's sake, it doesn't do anyone any good. I am a straightforward person and I don't pet people on the head and let them go on and on. I call it as I see it to help them see what they are accomplishing or not accomplishing. If you find the repeated inaccuracies interesting and useful to you, go ahead and engage in discussion and that's fine. I won't interrupt. But I don't see anyone besides 71dB with any interest in discussing this further. And I see the whole forum being sucked into arguing over something that isn't even factually correct.

I'm not being personal. In fact, I'm trying to prevent it going there. I'm just pointing out unproductive arguing and suggesting it be tabled, not propagated.
 
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Oct 14, 2022 at 3:42 PM Post #2,053 of 2,192
thank you

bfreedma, respect is earned. Ignoring what people say over and over and replying over and over without ever addressing their points doesn't earn respect. It earns a curt dismissal.

I tried, but as usual, you appear to refuse to consider your participation and responsibility for your own posts.

Sorry Bigshot, but you’ve gone way past curt dismissal and into bullying. Please stop. It has no place here amongst adults.

Curt dismissal - “I disagree and it isn’t worth continuing the conversation”
Bullying - “You are obsessed. Your posts are like kudzu. This isn’t normal, and it can’t end well.”
 
Oct 14, 2022 at 4:00 PM Post #2,054 of 2,192
I’ll take your advice and use your phrase when I see unproductive conversations going on in the future.
 
Oct 14, 2022 at 4:20 PM Post #2,055 of 2,192
I’ll take your advice and use your phrase when I see unproductive conversations going on in the future.

Thank you.

We can now return to the 137 page debate about crossfeed, which I admit is making me a little crosseyed. Thankfully, we seem to have cleared the crossroads :L3000:

I was going to make a Kris Kross reference, but that would be going too far...
 

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