[krismusic]

I am not aware of scientific evidence to support your claim and I believe the great majority of nutritional scientists would not approve of the your advice.  I know one can read what you have said in many webpages, books, magazine articles and I would be surprised if Dr. Oz hasn't said the same thing. There are an abundance of voices saying what you said and a lot of people believe it.  You're not alone so I am not trying to single you out.  I'm not trying to be nasty or pick a fight either but in spite of great hope for antioxidant therapy and even a few positive studies, on balance it has turned out to be a total scientific disappointment.  Yeah, I know a million people say they tried it and it works but that is anecdotal evidence, there's no good science to support the claims or beliefs. The take antioxidants belief has been around for a long time and is pretty widely believed.  That doesn't make it right.

[I should add that the belief in supplements sort of parallels the objectivist give me a double-blind ABX test versus the I know what I hear subjectivists whose differences of opinion are found throughout these forums.  I say roughly because the nutrition research is more clearly defined and focused than the audiophile wars.  It may even be easier to do an experiment]

To recommend questionable antioxidant therapy instead of turning down the volume (or buying 1964 Ears ADEL CIEM technolology if you believe in that) could literally cost other people their hearing.  If you are relying on vitamins and antioxidant theories to protect your ears and hearing, you are going to suffer hearing loss and tinnitus.  Do yourself a favor, turn down the volume and throw away the dietary supplements.

(and before you flame me, I should point out I read the peer-reveiwed research literature about this stuff regularly, I have a PhD in Biochemistry and I have taught nutritional biochemistry for many years).  In the off chance the posting was in jest I will say it was a good one, it fooled me.

Totally agree with you on spurious claims of a cure. Without any disrespect to CyberSyringe.
I have been told emphatically by two audiologists that I respect that there is no cure. Indeed "cures" can be debilitating as they encourage the sufferer to focus on the Tinnitus. Doing more harm than good.
I am also very sceptical of the Adele technology. I don't believe that reputable manufacturers, even those founded by a Doctor of audiology, would market products that they know would be harmful to their customers hearing. They would be rushing to license the technology.

 

[CyberSyringe]

Totally agree with you on spurious claims of a cure. Without any disrespect to CyberSyringe.
I have been told emphatically by two audiologists that I respect that there is no cure. Indeed "cures" can be debilitating as they encourage the sufferer to focus on the Tinnitus. Doing more harm than good.
I am also very sceptical of the Adele technology. I don't believe that reputable manufacturers, even those founded by a Doctor of audiology, would market products that they know would be harmful to their customers hearing. They would be rushing to license the technology.

 
Oh, I never said that it could be cured. I said that such usage would help prevent hearing loss. Should've also emphasized the importance of responsible listening levels and time exposure of course. 

 

[krismusic]

Oh, I never said that it could be cured. I said that such usage would help prevent hearing loss. Should've also emphasized the importance of responsible listening levels and time exposure of course. 

Fair play. Didn't mean to call you out on anything. If you've found something that's helpful that's good news.

 

[goodvibes]

Well. Here's irony. I just ordered myself an expensive pair of CIEMS just as my Tinnitus seems to be getting worse.

It used to be that I only heard it in a quiet room. I now hear it in a noisy room and even when listening to music, in quieter passages. I always said that by the time you can afford high end gear your hearing is knackered.
Any advice?

A lot depends on genetics and listening habits. Mine is not as bad as yours as I,m only aware in quiet environs and I still have decent bandwidth at 60. I listen every day but head/earphones are not my primary source.

 

[goodvibes]

Totally agree with you on spurious claims of a cure. Without any disrespect to CyberSyringe.
I have been told emphatically by two audiologists that I respect that there is no cure. Indeed "cures" can be debilitating as they encourage the sufferer to focus on the Tinnitus. Doing more harm than good.
I am also very sceptical of the Adele technology. I don't believe that reputable manufacturers, even those founded by a Doctor of audiology, would market products that they know would be harmful to their customers hearing. They would be rushing to license the technology.

I like the Adele tech. In ears are pistonic pressure waves in nature and there's no self limiting without having something like that. I'm sure the adele tech has a much greater effect at higher spl.

 

[castleofargh]

we mentioned that stuff already, but I really doubt a tech like that will change anything.
 just take your favorite fully sealed custom, put it in the ear without a seal and notice how weak the output really is and how weak the low frequency becomes. the sealed canal is a trick for super weak IEMs to feel louder than they really are. but they're the weakest stuff you can find.
  IMO what really matters is always how loud we perceive the sound. the adel thingy can either absorb a lot of the pressure change and then needs to output the bass several db louder for us to feel the same bass loudness(so it's more energy+more absorption= about same stuff+probably more distortions), or doesn't absorb much of the ear canal pressure, is just a marketing stunt, and then it's no different than a sealed IEM. there are no situation were the bass will sound loud but not put pressure on the eardrum.

 

[AudioBear]

Can't comment one way or the other about what you think is going on, could be as you describe.  What I can tell you is that my A12s are very good, do not lack for bass or anything else.  They are about is good as it gets.  Will they save my hearing?  I don't really know but at least they sound great. 
 
I'm inclined to believe it's not so simple as open or closed but I can't  prove that.  They are certainly not weak and are definitely not bass deficient.  I don't have a way to measure the volume I am listening at.  If the claims they make are true then I should be listening at a lower volume.  Like I say, there's more going on with them than just venting the pressure by being open.

 

[Chiyo]

  we mentioned that stuff already, but I really doubt a tech like that will change anything.
 just take your favorite fully sealed custom, put it in the ear without a seal and notice how weak the output really is and how weak the low frequency becomes. the sealed canal is a trick for super weak IEMs to feel louder than they really are. but they're the weakest stuff you can find.
  IMO what really matters is always how loud we perceive the sound. the adel thingy can either absorb a lot of the pressure change and then needs to output the bass several db louder for us to feel the same bass loudness(so it's more energy+more absorption= about same stuff+probably more distortions), or doesn't absorb much of the ear canal pressure, is just a marketing stunt, and then it's no different than a sealed IEM. there are no situation were the bass will sound loud but not put pressure on the eardrum.

This is what I love about CIEMs. Unlike some of my universal IEMs, I don't have to pump up the volume just so I can get an engaging/fun sound.

 

[krismusic]

What I can tell you is that my A12s are very good, do not lack for bass or anything else.  They are about is good as it gets.  Will they save my hearing?  I don't really know but at least they sound great. 

That is really all that matters. Out of interest, do they leak sound into the outside world anymore than a non vented custom would?

 

[castleofargh]

  Can't comment one way or the other about what you think is going on, could be as you describe.  What I can tell you is that my A12s are very good, do not lack for bass or anything else.  They are about is good as it gets.  Will they save my hearing?  I don't really know but at least they sound great. 
 
I'm inclined to believe it's not so simple as open or closed but I can't  prove that.  They are certainly not weak and are definitely not bass deficient.  I don't have a way to measure the volume I am listening at.  If the claims they make are true then I should be listening at a lower volume.  Like I say, there's more going on with them than just venting the pressure by being open.

^_^. I never heard them and I would be very very cautious to try and extrapolate how nice it sounds from a tech. even if I'm right about some added distortions somewhere, they might be very low, or they might be the kind we love. my hd650's bass is proof to me that some distortions in headphones can be special in a positive way(subjectively!!!!!!!!!!!). so I'm really not saying it's a bad IEM or that it sounds bad, but I don't expect any difference in listening levels. so far in my life the only thing that ever made me listen at lower levels was a better isolation from outside noises. depending on the tips I use to go walking on the streets, I end up with up to 12db louder with the "sport" foam from comply compared to the more isolating ones. because I need to cover up for passing cars(aside from that they let the ear breath and they don't stay engorged with humidity like the other comply do so it's great for sport, but in quiet places ^_^).
 
  to get rid of some of the extra pressure from insertion, which is the main purpose of this system, that really depends on the IEM I guess. on custom I just pull my ear while opening my jaw a little to break the seal for a sec and find that it removes any feeling of pressure. with something non custom, it will really depends on the tips and depth of insertion. I do remember suffering for pressure as explained in the video with the ear canal when using my etymotics with triple flanges, and it was sometimes not possible to get as deep as I wished while removing the sense of pressure. in that situation the adel stuff or a vent would make a lot of sense IMO.
but I happen to use comply foam to solve that problem/comfort. the foam can't seem to keep an air tight confinement and I never feel pressure on the eardrum for more than a few seconds.
 
now there is nothing wrong with trying to get people aware of the problem, and if only for that 1964 did something cool.

 

[AudioBear]

@castleofargh
 
Checkout http://www.head-fi.org/t/739712/1964-ears-adel-iems/1785#post_11792136
 
A good description of the A12 (except maybe for the "strange sound' --I never heard it).
 
I think this is far more than a vent and wonder if they have not told us everything about ADEL.  I am pretty sure it's not just a tiny variable vent, that doesn't completely explain it's effect.
 
You should find a way to try it yourself and let us know what you think it is.  Are there dealers in France?  CanJam London in August?

 

[goodvibes]

  we mentioned that stuff already, but I really doubt a tech like that will change anything.
 just take your favorite fully sealed custom, put it in the ear without a seal and notice how weak the output really is and how weak the low frequency becomes. the sealed canal is a trick for super weak IEMs to feel louder than they really are. but they're the weakest stuff you can find.
  IMO what really matters is always how loud we perceive the sound. the adel thingy can either absorb a lot of the pressure change and then needs to output the bass several db louder for us to feel the same bass loudness(so it's more energy+more absorption= about same stuff+probably more distortions), or doesn't absorb much of the ear canal pressure, is just a marketing stunt, and then it's no different than a sealed IEM. there are no situation were the bass will sound loud but not put pressure on the eardrum.

Not really it's variable and works as a pressure limiter. It's valve nature should allows normal sound at lower levels while protecting from those over excursions that damage. It can also be configured to somewhat inversely correct for the fletcher munson curve when properly configured. We've got youngish folks here complaining of tinnitus. We can agree to disagree but there have been studies linking IEM use to hearing damage. I'm not buying them just because it's there and isolation may suffer a bit as well but I think it's a good idea and different that the just putting a front port on an IEM which is not variable and far from uncommon. 

 

[castleofargh]

it's not like I'm against people trying to protect their ears ^_^.
but looking at the eardrum we have 2 phenomenons to deal with:
1/ the eardrum is moved at a certain amplitude at a certain speed, and that get us to ear a given loudness at a given frequency. how do you expect to affect this in a non linear way without distorting the sound?
2/ the damping mechanism that kicks in when a sound is loud. that happens to limit the eardrum movement as an attempt to protect our ears. so we're at that time less sensitive and thus we need to rise the volume level to feel the same loudness. how can a system affect this outside of making the sound quieter on a global scale? and if the sound is quieter what stops the user from rising the volume level on the DAP to feel the same loudness again? and if it's not just making all of the music quieter, then back to 1/ and non linearities. does that stuff act as some kind of compressor? if so there is now a concern for sound fidelity.
if it's something to even out the inside pressure created from insertion, now it's certainly not a bad thing to reduce at least fatigue. but as I said before, try to break the seal for a sec by pulling on your ear or moving the jaw... or just don't use silicone tips. that would yield the same kind of result.
 
even without knowing what system is used and how it works, there are only so many things that can happen at the eardrum.
 
about IEMs and hearing loss, to me that's pretty obvious that we ruin ourselves by trying to cover up the ambient sounds with music(like in a car with the stereo too loud on the highway). that's killing ears more than anything else. when there is a lot of noise, do not listen to music! just keep the IEMs ON as ear plugs without music. that would solve many problems IMO.
even more so when you think about all the earbuds that have zero isolation. how many people ruined their ears with the first apple earbuds? I could see those everywhere on the street, in the subway, they had no isolation whatsoever.  those are the real ear killers.
IMO isolation is the very best way to listen to music quietly. the pressure inside the ear may be a problem at some point if it cannot get to equilibrium for hours, but again I imagine this as fatigue more than actual damage. I know that using my IE80 that have mediocre isolation but still some, or a pair of etymotic, the music I play will tend to end up much louder with the IE80 to cover the external noises. each time a few cars will pass by, I will have to rise the volume level so that I can still hear the music, then I may go down again, but often I might just forget about it and stay louder. no such problem or at a much lower scale with well isolating IEMs.

 

[jtaylor991]

  I've had slight ear ringing for as long as i can remember throughout childhood. (18 now) It bothers me only when i let it. Otherwise I go days without noticing it. I'm not sure if it's tinnitus, but after loud noises, it can be annoying. I've found that my ears are more sensitive than most around me. I find i'm the only one covering my ears when a police car goes by or other things like that. I hope it doesn't escalate. :/ I love music and listening to high end music stuff.

 
I'm your age with a similar situation. I don't even notice police cars usually since I'm listening to music when I'm traveling 90% of the time and that combined with mental focus totally masks it.
 
Anyway, if I were to guess, I'd say I hurt myself from blasting earbuds (after parents trying to get me not to!) when I was 4 to 5 years old. Oh well, if there's some issues from that, I suppose I can deal with it; it's not like I can't enjoy music (I don't even really notice it except when it's really quiet, I'm thinking about it like now, and it gets the worst when I get out of the shower

) and can't expect to for the foreseeable future, but I'm going to see an audiologist soon so I can make sure I don't make it worse and I can take measures to reverse or subdue it if possible. On the bright side, we will likely have amazing hearing assistance in our lifetimes, both because of medical tech and our peers blasting themselves to Mars with their iBuds

. I hope to see a cochlear implant type of thing where it's an actual, legitimate replacement for an entire ear (robotic ear, if you will).

 

[AudioBear]

@castleofargh
 
Read all the ADEL stuff again.  Your post correctly mentions two things that are going on.  The ADEL stuff claims there are three.  The third is that in a sealed IEM system there is sound and pressure. Pressure created by the transducers not the insertion.  I don't get the physics of how they separate sound waves from pressure.  I thought sound was compressions (=high pressure) and rarefactions (=low pressure) but nobody is challenging them on their claim that they relieve the pressure but don't damp the soundwaves.  I thought it was a bit of hocus pocus but I love the A12 and really enjoy it.  Like I said before, will it help protect my ears?  I don't know and probably never will because the experiment has no control.
 
I think everyone agrees that loud music damages hearing and many people are listening at way too loud levels.  There are going to be a lot of young people with hearing loss pretty soon.  It's from many sources but earbuds are a huge offender (IMHO).  There is a big migration to cans but I doubt that will help a lot.  We'll see. I suspect there is also going to be a new generation of tinnitus sufferers.