Tidal Lossless Streaming

[Cornan]

A question for all you Tidal sound optimizers. What's the difference in sound between a fully tweaked PC or Mac and feeding Tidal to a DAC with an iPad and camera connection kit? It's certainly a lot easier to use a Tidal on an iPad, IMHO.

In general there is no wrong using the iPad>ICC>DAC...but you would most certainly get a lot better using the i-Pure dock http://www.pure.com/product/i-20-vl-61429/ and good quality digital coaxial RCA cables like some people uses at Head-fi.org (no one mentioned...no one forgotten

). Apart from that option I would say that the greatest disadvantage with using an iPad as the only source/player is CPU limitations and the lack of good enhancers. There are though one good enhancer that you could try with your setup called Cardas Clairifier http://www.cardas.com/app/clarifier/. Works wonders...but only for a while. You will need to run it regularly.
 
If you for example would use a Windows 8+ computer with JplayStreamer, Minimserver, Kazoo app, Asio Bridge and Fildelizer Pro I would be extremely surprised if you do not get a huge improvement. This is a even more practical solution with the iPad as a wireless control device (no wires attached) plus you will releave most of the iPad´s CPU intensive work to the computer and getting the true potential of optimizers like Jplay6 and Fidelizer as well. 

 
 
Edit: For example. One of the reasons that Flat PCM files (AIFF/WAV) sounds better than lossless is due to more CPU intensive work/processor load that the computer needs for reading the lossless files. The CPU is very important for the sound...and is even more important when playing lossless files...rather than flat PCM files.

 

[iamoneagain]

  Just installed Amarra SQ+ on the Macbook and plugged it into the headphone rig.  Amarra can definitely bring back some presence with EQ with Tidal but the purist in me kinda cringes at this.  Yes, EQ does help bring back some of the recessed top end I'm missing.  I've been using a RME babyface to listen at work and I've been using the built in channel EQ to bring up the top end because I feel like its missing.  A/B between Tidal w/ Amarra vs the same track in Audirvana is clearly different to my ears.....  I'm tempted to record the DAC analog output with both and look at spectral analysis in Adobe Audition to quantify the difference....  If anyone is wondering, I've been using Alison Krauss' New Favorite as reference comparison.  I'm going to bed tonight though
 
 

 
I just use sQ without any of the EQ and it enhances the sound to my liking by increasing soundstage and adding special sweetness.  It's almost the same sound signature as playing an iTunes track thru Amarra.  Also if you did a trial of Amarra vs Audirvana, you'd see they have different sound signatures. Amarra has sort of a more tube-like effect and Audirvana seems more technical sounding. Audirvana will seem like it's got better everything when quickly switching between the two but over time I find Amarra the more natural and enjoyable sound.  Seems to capture the rhythm better.
 
So when the Amarra for Tidal comes out, they claim it will be "bit perfect", so if you leave settings flat, you should have nothing to cringe at.  Now whether is produces a sound to your liking is another thing.

 

[toolio]

In general there is no wrong using the iPad>ICC>DAC...but you would most certainly get a lot better using the i-Pure dock http://www.pure.com/product/i-20-vl-61429/ and good quality digital coaxial RCA cables like some people uses at Head-fi.org (no one mentioned...no one forgotten

). Apart from that option I would say that the greatest disadvantage with using an iPad as the only source/player is CPU limitations and the lack of good enhancers. There are though one good enhancer that you could try with your setup called Cardas Clairifier http://www.cardas.com/app/clarifier/. Works wonders...but only for a while. You will need to run it regularly.
 
If you for example would use a Windows 8+ computer with JplayStreamer, Minimserver, Kazoo app, Asio Bridge and Fildelizer Pro I would be extremely surprised if you do not get a huge improvement. This is a even more practical solution with the iPad as a wireless control device (no wires attached) plus you will releave most of the iPad´s CPU intensive work to the computer and getting the true potential of optimizers like Jplay6 and Fidelizer as well. 

 
 
Edit: For example. One of the reasons that Flat PCM files (AIFF/WAV) sounds better than lossless is due to more CPU intensive work/processor load that the computer needs for reading the lossless files. The CPU is very important for the sound...and is even more important when playing lossless files...rather than flat PCM files.

 


Thanks for the reply. I'll fiddle with my Windows setup and then do some comparisons. I'm in Brasil at the moment, so I'll never find the i-Pure dock. But I'll play with Asio bridge and Fidelizer Pro, which I was planning to try anyway. I already have a PC streaming system working quite well with my Synology NAS via JRiver, so I'm reluctant to change players or server methods.

 

[Cornan]

In general there is no wrong using the iPad>ICC>DAC...but you would most certainly get a lot better using the i-Pure dock http://www.pure.com/product/i-20-vl-61429/ and good quality digital coaxial RCA cables like some people uses at Head-fi.org (no one mentioned...no one forgotten

). Apart from that option I would say that the greatest disadvantage with using an iPad as the only source/player is CPU limitations and the lack of good enhancers. There are though one good enhancer that you could try with your setup called Cardas Clairifier http://www.cardas.com/app/clarifier/. Works wonders...but only for a while. You will need to run it regularly.
 
If you for example would use a Windows 8+ computer with JplayStreamer, Minimserver, Kazoo app, Asio Bridge and Fildelizer Pro I would be extremely surprised if you do not get a huge improvement. This is a even more practical solution with the iPad as a wireless control device (no wires attached) plus you will releave most of the iPad´s CPU intensive work to the computer and getting the true potential of optimizers like Jplay6 and Fidelizer as well. 

 
 
Edit: For example. One of the reasons that Flat PCM files (AIFF/WAV) sounds better than lossless is due to more CPU intensive work/processor load that the computer needs for reading the lossless files. The CPU is very important for the sound...and is even more important when playing lossless files...rather than flat PCM files.

 


Thanks for the reply. I'll fiddle with my Windows setup and then do some comparisons. I'm in Brasil at the moment, so I'll never find the i-Pure dock. But I'll play with Asio bridge and Fidelizer Pro, which I was planning to try anyway. I already have a PC streaming system working quite well with my Synology NAS via JRiver, so I'm reluctant to change players or server methods.

If you have a later edition of Jriver 20 you could try their WDM driver instead of Asio Bridge. Personally I prefer the sound from Asio Bridge but heard from a very reliable source that Jrivers WDM driver could be a better option with some setup. Worth trying if you are running Tidal anyway! Jriver works brilliant with both Fidelizer Pro and Jplay6 with patch (tip! ask Windows X for the patch if you want to try Jriver with Jplay6).

 

[jethal]

   
What's interesting, watching portions of the WWDC keynote, is that Apple is pitching many of the same features of TIDAL: curated playlists, included videos, being able to follow artists, et al.
 
In classic Apple style, they presented Apple Music like everything they are pitching is brand new and unique - much of it looked like TIDAL, if you ask me, minus the lossless quality aspect.
 
I was underwhelmed.
 
It will be interesting to see what audiophile vendors do to follow suit: will there be anything like Spotify Connect to allow device-direct streaming, using your app as a remote? BTW, I read that TIDAL is working on this, as well.

 
The only thing Apple introduced to the streaming market is the family plan pricing which I'm sure the other participants will quickly follow as it becomes a price race to the bottom in this expensive battle for marketshare.

 

[Cornan]

The only thing Apple introduced to the streaming market is the family plan pricing which I'm sure the other participants will quickly follow as it becomes a price race to the bottom in this expensive battle for marketshare.

Sorry, but not even the family plan pricing is something new. Spotify have this already...so no news at all from Apple! :rolleyes:

 

[jethal]

Sorry, but not even the family plan pricing is something new. Spotify have this already...so no news at all from Apple!

 
Yes, sorry, I expressed myself wrong. I meant to say cheaper family pricing.
 
Apple allows up to 6 people on $14.99
 
Currently Spotify does
 
2 people - $14.99
3 people - $19.99
4 people - $24.99
5 people - $29.99
 
But again, I imagine Spotify/Tidal/etc. will match the Apple plan eventually.

 

[Krutsch]

Sorry, but not even the family plan pricing is something new. Spotify have this already...so no news at all from Apple!

+1 ... I do this with my family already.

 

[Tai1or Made]

So after finally updated my Mac from 10.6 to 10.10, I decided to try the beta again.

Low and behold, it works now.

Liking the app, looks pretty, has videos and can finally go fullscreen (pet hate of mine).

 

[stuartmc]

You are welcome!

IMO Fidelizer Free is the best free audio software around...and Fidelizer Pro is one of my best buy when it comes to audio improvements. I am not familiar with Tanly Audio or the Lenovo Thinkpad...but if the Thinkpad have Windows 8.1 pro and the audio is going through USB to the Tanly Audio device (supposing that this is your DAC) I am surprices that you do not hear any improvements. Have you chosen Extremist Optimization and ticked Network and User Experiance? This is by far the best option with Fidelizer Free and works like a charm with Tidal.
If the tablet is mailny used as a player you must make sure to optimize your audiophile player....eg Tidal.exe. This is however a minor improvement in my experiance. But by your description of your setup I would guess that you are actually using the tablet as a computer...not as a player only...but I could´nt be sure?
Also, since you are running windows 8.1 I would personally download Jplay6. You will have the option to use the JplayStreamer with a huge sound improvement. Check it out on www.jplay.eu.

I have it all setup correctly and it sounds great. In Tidal settings I can quickly toggle between Asio bridge and the Thysecon program for Tanly. Asio bridge sounds better. The Thysecon latency program does not work correctly with Windows 8, so I just played around with the settings to find where I got good playback without dropouts and crackling. My setup does not handle minimum latency and 64 samples very well. I had to go with low latency and 512 samples for best sound quality. Again, Fedelizer brings nothing discernable to the game for me.

 

[Cornan]

I have it all setup correctly and it sounds great. In Tidal settings I can quickly toggle between Asio bridge and the Thysecon program for Tanly. Asio bridge sounds better. The Thysecon latency program does not work correctly with Windows 8, so I just played around with the settings to find where I got good playback without dropouts and crackling. My setup does not handle minimum latency and 64 samples very well. I had to go with low latency and 512 samples for best sound quality. Again, Fedelizer brings nothing discernable to the game for me.

I am happy that you are satisfied with the sound! In general the minimum latency should give you the best results with TheSycon v 1.61+ drivers...since you make sure that the latency is as low as possible for the chosen buffer sample and will most possibly give you less problems. Sounds like at least 256 samples should work with min. latency on your setup. Still find it strange that you do not hear any difference with Fidelizer...but recon the reason is your tablet computer!? Even if the Dpc latency checker does'nt work with Windows 8 you can read the manual. You get some good tips there were to search for latency related issues.

 

[Chikolad]

The web/desktop app has been updated with version 1.5.0-p-9 and indeed the search looks much better!

 

[Topspin70]

Can someone help to explain a rather basic question of what actually happens when I adjust the Web app volume? I'm asking as I feed the output signal to my dac/pre via usb ans since that signal doesn't go through any internal amp in the computer, what makes it go loud or soft before entering my dac/pre? If you're wondering my dac/amp volume doesn't change correspondingly as is the case for some players that take control of the volume.

 

[Cornan]

Can someone help to explain a rather basic question of what actually happens when I adjust the Web app volume? I'm asking as I feed the output signal to my dac/pre via usb ans since that signal doesn't go through any internal amp in the computer, what makes it go loud or soft before entering my dac/pre? If you're wondering my dac/amp volume doesn't change correspondingly as is the case for some players that take control of the volume.

It might seem like a basic question...but it is actually several questions and not very easy to explain with a simple answer...but I will try.
Your first question regarding the app volumeis really a question what Tidal and Chrome does with your signal before sending it to the computer soundcard? As far as I know Tidal is just using Chromes built in abbility to send audio to your computers default sound device...whatever this is in your case. There is no option to choose the sound device inside Chrome/Tidal.
Your next question is what makes it go soft or loud? The signal via a computer is always changed in some way on the journey to the external DAC. Since Tidal's Chrome player is not bitperfect by design the signal will be even more changed due to sample conversions and additional jitter before entering the DAC.
Your third question is why Tidals Chrome player is not taking control over your volume? This is simply because it is not bitperfect by design. You can not choose sound device and it is not compatible with bitperfect playback like Asio/Wasapi etc.
Your solution for everything is to download Asio Bridge. It will act as a virtual Asio speaking i/o. There are many previous post regarding this software on this thread. Have a look for more info how to implement the software. There are also other software coming that helps Tidal to be bitperfect (Amarra for Tidal/Roon etc) and the new Tidal desktop player (not Chrome player) should have bitperfect playback for Asio as well (plus sound better than Chrome player)...but your question was for Tidals Chrome/web player.
Edit: there is actually several other software that do the same thing as Asio Bridge. For example FlexAsio and AsioLink Pro. Asio Bridge is just the most simple one to use and is currently updated. If you for example want to share Audio stream through the network to another computer and want to have more than one sound device you could have a look at AsioLink Pro as well.

 

[Chikolad]

Your solution for everything is to download Asio Bridge.

 
I still don't see how ASIO Bridge can help with the web player. The sound goes through the windows mixer anyway and then to ASIO Bridge. So it's definitely not bitperfect. I don't think that's what you claim, so how else does going through ASIO Bridge help the SQ in this case?