Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

[estreeter]

  Rumor has it that yggy sounds indistinguishable from an odac for the first 48 hours after being powered on 

 
And we seem to be back to 'any properly designed DAC will sound identical to any other properly designed DAC given similar measurements'  

 
@AiDee - no problem - I may have gone in a little hard in that post and I'm happy to move on. You and I seem to have read both Jason and Mike's posts differently, but that's cool too. 

 

[Argo Duck]

^ Equally happy to move on @estreeter. Cheers

 

[Currawong]

@estreeter I meant the same thing as Jason wrote: It's overblown. I found a lot of gear doesn't sound quite as it is capable of when first switched on but better after some time, whether that be 10 minutes or 4 hours. It doensn't consume my life, I just switch my DACs on as early as possible before listening because I feel the result is better. 
 
The argument is a unicorn because it is a construct, whereas the Yggy is real. 

 

[zerodeefex]

Even the .96 sounded great to me just turned on. It got better after a couple of days of power up, but it was darn tootin good on first boot. I am getting super excited that we have seen a 1.0 out in the wild! I have my credit card standing by

 

[Maxx134]

Plankton? I don't know, I find him gritty and annoying. 

Haha I love that photo...
I am obsessed with retrieving all audio plankton. .

...... but on all the time indefinitely - that's a no no for me. I will wait it out for a few months and see what others say and make a decision then but I will definitely give the yggy a chance - i just really wanna hear one and am determined to do so now

There seems to be a huge hole in information concerning warm up with many members here.

I really can't understand why it is not a well known and accepted knowledge about leaving electronics on and " burn in" .

Well run recoding studios NEVER shut down their systems,
Actually if you worked in one and did that would get you fired.

It is known in first year electronics that all circuits are designed to work in the ON state,

So whatever happens in between when U turn it (either on or off) will adversely affect it.

It was also known loooong ago, since my pops "hifi" days,
that leaving stereo on was a good thing.
In His B&K sonata preamp, the circuitry always stayed on and the power button simply muted the outputs.
That was way back in the 90s
And it is still plugged in and still looks new & sounds like magic.

So I have to state again there is alot of rather naive opinions floating around here, and I don't mean to insult your post, just in general I don't know how this void of knowledge happened
.
there are in actuality many appliance & electronics that stay "on" in your home all the time from the clocks in your microwave,
to your refrigerator where you sneak to at night while reading my dumb long post...
How many people here have a dvr or cable box that always warm? Hmmmm?

 

[agooh]

Hugo and hugo TT is better in detail and musicality and make music live and sound real.
I will rank them like :
Chord Hugo : S
Chord Hugo TT : S++
Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC RS : S+++, best dac I ever heard .
There are best of the best .

 

[chowmein83]

   
Ruh-roh ...
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/758649/canjam-socal-2015-impressions-thread/45#post_11455110
 
Per my post in that thread, perhaps today's CANJAM attendees have a better chance of hearing Yggy at it's best. The irony of a Head-Fier hearing both Yggy and the (portable) Hugo for the first time (the TT is the same DAC FWIW) and preferring the Hugo isnt lost on me, but I'm happy to wait for a few more impressions, albeit in the less than ideal conditions of a meet. So far, most of the raves seem to be around Mr Speakers ETHER and the HE-1000 : hopefully someone will plug one or both into a Yggy/Rag combo on Day 2 and give us some feedback. Really sorry for all our wallets  

 
Ok, I've been looking at the posts in this thread, and I'd thought I'd chime in with my thoughts on the Ygg/Rag combo at CanJam. Yes, I was lucky enough to plug in the Ether and the HE-1000 into the combo (as well as an HD800 and HE-560 that were at the Schiit table, and the HE-400i that I brought).
 
I'm going to be quoting several of my other posts in other threads:
 

Then I went to the Schiit booth to listen to the Ragnarok and Yggdrasil combo they had there. I was lucky enough to actually experience the HD-800, Ether, HE-1000, HE-560, and the HE-400i I brought all on that combo - sorry to anybody who was waiting if I hogged it too long! (Look for my comparison of these headphones on that setup in other threads later). What did I think of the Schiit combo? In short, I was actually kind of disappointed. Head-Fi has made it sound like the Yggdrasil is like the next big step in audio quality, but I honestly could not hear that. I seriously did not think it really sounded better than some of the other expensive DACs that were at the show. Also, the setup was really bright (I know this mainly because I plugged my HE-400i in, and I am very familiar with how that sounds). Is the combo still a great sounding combo? Undoubtedly yes (though in my opinion you'll need to like their sound signature). But is it really that much better than everything else in the market? In my opinion, no.

 

Originally Posted by chowmein83 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The HE-1000 sounds a bit brighter than the Ether in my opinion. While I thought that the HE-1000 could get harsh at times with the Schiit combo (something I attribute more to the Schiit combo than the HE-1000 itself, after having heard the HE-1000 paired with Hifiman's other amps), I never really felt that way with the Ether paired with the Ragnarok/Yggdrasil combo.

 

  I was also very lucky to be able to listen to the HE-1000 with the Schiit Ragnarok and Yggdrasil combo. First off, I'm going to say that while I thought the Schiit combo was good, it's not going to make current owners of other high-end gear be very jealous. Don't get me wrong, the Yggdrasil and Ragnarok combo sounded very good, excellent even, but to me did not sound really better than any of the other high-end combos that I heard at CanJam (for example, to me it didn't sound any better paired with the HD-800 or the Ether than those same headphones paired with the Cavalli Audio Liquid Gold paired with some really expensive DAC that I forget the name of). Also, the HE-1000 sounded really, really bright with the Ragnarok/Yggdrasil combo (to the point of being harsh at times in my opinion). However, if I look past that, I found the HE-1000 paired with the Schiit combo to be really, really good. With well-recorded music, once again there was this realistic layer to the sound that no other headphone at the show (with the exception of the SR-009 paired with Frank's amp) could really come close to. I especially remember some kind of orchestral/chorus track that I randomly picked at the Schiit table, and I was pretty impressed with what I heard in terms of actually feeling like being in the actual concert hall for such a thing. I think a lot of people will be extremely pleased with the HE-1000/Schiit combo, but personally I found the HE-1000 to pair better with Hifiman's EF-1000 amp (which is warmer but still not lacking in detail, and much closer to my tonality preferences). I do wish that I could've plugged in the HE-1000 into one of the Cavalli Audio amps (which I was extremely impressed with), but Mr. Bian wanted to keep the HE-1000 in the room where Hifiman was, and so I respected his wishes.
 

 
The following quote comes from when a fellow head-fi'er asked me about the pairing between the Ether and the Ygg/Rag:
 

  A winning combination? Yes, I would think so after hearing it. However, I feel that is mostly because the Ether is tuned so that it never gets harsh, because the Ygg/Rag combo definitely got harsh on some of the other headphones I tested it with (namely HE-560, HE-1000 at points, and the HD800). The Ether has this quality where it has great treble-extension but it's never grating on the ears.
 
However, I will say that I found other combos to be better suited to my taste. Specifically, I really loved any of the Cavalli amps with the Ether - to me, it's a better combination of warmth and detail.

 
Overall, the major points behind my thoughts are that 1.) The Ygg/Rag combo is pretty dang good, but not mind-blowing (especially compared to other high-end setups) and 2.) to me this setup is really bright. (The sound signature is really why I said I preferred the EF-1000 pairing with the HE-1000 over that same headphone with the Schiit combo). And yes, I listened to the combo on the second day of CanJam.
 
To give a reference point as to what my preferences are, I especially enjoyed the Cavalli Audio Liquid Gold paired with that crazy expensive DAC, and the Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon and portable IEM amp with the Chord Hugo acting as the DAC.
 
As always, I have to put the usual disclaimers that these are all only my opinion, and that CanJam conditions were not entirely optimal for listening.

 

[Sorrodje]

@chowmein83 : what's you reference headphone and gear ? what's your history in audio ? Did you own or experienced during long time some reference dac or amp ? what dac or amp ? what's you musical tastes?  .. in other words, can you precise please where you're coming from ?   Opinion does not matter so much if we don't have the full context  
 
What gives a specific weight to some opinions here is the fact posters are undoubtly experienced in audio. DIYfier, Experienced hobbyists,  Some people with measurement rigs.  I can read Hans030390 opinion and know where he comes from .We're sharing some experience of the same gear , and our experiences are a bit different so when he give impressions, i know how to receive and understand them. Sometimes it can apply for me . sometimes not.
 
Posters here are a kind of Galaxy.  I can almost sit the main posters on my personal map and I know where I'm sit myself in this galaxy. then I try to correlate others experiences to mine and even a guy have different tastes than mine, I understand what he says. 

 

[chowmein83]

  @chowmein83 : what's you reference headphone and gear ? what's your history in audio ? Did you own or experienced during long time some reference dac or amp ? what dac or amp ? what's you musical tastes?  .. in other words, can you precise please where you're coming from ?   Opinion does not matter so much if we don't have the full context  
 
What gives a specific weight to some opinions here is the fact posters are undoubtly experienced in audio. DIYfier, Experienced hobbyists,  Some people with measurement rigs.  I can read Hans030390 opinion and know where he comes from .We're sharing some experience of the same gear , and our experiences are a bit different so when he give impressions, i know how to receive and understand them. Sometimes it can apply for me . sometimes not.
 
Posters here are a kind of Galaxy.  I can almost sit the main posters on my personal map and I know where I'm sit myself in this galaxy. then I try to correlate others experiences to mine and even a guy have different tastes than mine, I understand what he says. 

 
History in audio - well, to summarize, I've been in this hobby for several years, but it wasn't until the last two years I started to get serious and upgrade to better DACs and amps beyond FiiO and get better headphones (starting with the Sennheiser HD598). I now own a Hifiman HE-400i, which is usually paired to my Nuforce UDH-100 DAC/Amp combo (which I believe is really an extremely-stripped down in terms of features Nuforce DAC-100; project86 has a really good review on the DAC-100, and his description of the DAC-100 sounds pretty close to what I'm hearing out of my UDH-100). Other headphones I have auditioned with my UDH-100 and Aune T1 DAC/amp combo are listed in my profile under the "Auditioned only" section.
 
As for musical tastes, well, I like jazz, rock, female vocals, J-Pop and C-Pop, orchestral, and probably other things that I'm forgetting right now. But those are the major music genres that I like.

 

[estreeter]

  @estreeter I meant the same thing as Jason wrote: It's overblown. I found a lot of gear doesn't sound quite as it is capable of when first switched on but better after some time, whether that be 10 minutes or 4 hours. It doensn't consume my life, I just switch my DACs on as early as possible before listening because I feel the result is better. 
 
The argument is a unicorn because it is a construct, whereas the Yggy is real. 

 
Thanks Amos, and I hope you survived the flight back intact, assuming you're now back in Japan. I would have been looking at that little trip map they have onscreen and desperately wishing I could get off in Hawaii for a couple of nights  

 

[estreeter]

Before I forget, the Cavalli portable does seem to have an official name now - the Liquid Silicon. No idea when Alex will get the battery sorted, but given that this amp seems to have incubating for at least 2 years I guess the Cavalli faithful can wait a little longer. Scroll down in this thread - the little guy looks quite small sandwiched between the Liquid Carbon and a Hugo but it will be interesting to see how Cavalli gear that will reportedly come in under 700 USD will be received by that segment of the Head-Fi community, particularly with ALO's Continental 2 at a jaw-dropping $1500, albeit with it's own DAC and toobs. Carting those massive DAC+amp stacks that were de rigeur when the CLAS was released seems to have become decidedly uncool in 2015.  
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/758649/canjam-socal-2015-impressions-thread/420#post_11461464
 
Away from portable amps and back to desktop DACs - apologies for the slight detour. 

 

[magiccabbage]

How much energy does the Yggy suck from the wall? Would it be akin to leaving a PC running all day? Does anyone have an idea of the cost? 
 
Just trying to figure out the cost per month. I share a house with others - its not fair if my gear jacks up the price for everyone else in the house. If it ain't that much more then its no big deal I suppose. 
 
 
Does yggy take 30 watts from the wall? A regular PC is 65 - 250 I think? 
 
If its the difference between 30 and 250 then thats fine. 

 

[AstralStorm]

   
And we seem to be back to 'any properly designed DAC will sound identical to any other properly designed DAC given similar measurements'  

That is true actually. Except the set of measurements used by that guy was not comprehensive enough.
 
Antialiasing filter design for instance, if any is present; noise shaper in sigma-delta DACs.
Presence or absence of ringing in step response - not sure how audible that is, but it can be measurably different.
Crosstalk is also a big variable. Reaction to weird loads also can cause trouble.
(Though he did design the DAC to work with "most" "reasonable" loads - which does not include low impedance inputs/high currents or high capacitance wiring.)
 
Psychoacoustic caveat: acutance vs accuracy. What you say is plankton might actually be the result of inaccurate reproduction and should not be audible.
Accuracy in DACs is an absolute value. Acutance is not. That you like something doesn't mean it is actually accurate.
For instance, some people like sharpening, some prefer blurring in sampling filters.
 
And it is also important how the downstream gear (amplifier and headphones/speakers) reacts to any introduced artifact - there's a whole huge world of possibilities there.
 
Regardless, we're talking about the last 1% of sound quality when you're considering most non-broken DACs - unless you're planning to connect the DAC to a weird load.

 

[pldelisle]

Wow ! Really nice thread and many thanks to Purrin for the reviews !

 
 
But every time I read about the Schiit Bifrost Uber vs Gungnir, I'm more and more uncertain about which one to choose
 
The Bifrost Uber USB fits my budget. Gungnir would be more a long-long term investment. Are the additional 330 $ (well, in Canada it's more like 400 $!) of the Gungnir worth it ? It's almost twice the price ...

 

[Downrange]

  That is true actually. Except the set of measurements used by that guy was not comprehensive enough.
 
Antialiasing filter design for instance, if any is present; noise shaper in sigma-delta DACs.
Presence or absence of ringing in step response - not sure how audible that is, but it can be measurably different.
Crosstalk is also a big variable. Reaction to weird loads also can cause trouble.
(Though he did design the DAC to work with "most" "reasonable" loads - which does not include low impedance inputs/high currents or high capacitance wiring.)
 
Psychoacoustic caveat: acutance vs accuracy. What you say is plankton might actually be the result of inaccurate reproduction and should not be audible.
Accuracy in DACs is an absolute value. Acutance is not. That you like something doesn't mean it is actually accurate.
For instance, some people like sharpening, some prefer blurring in sampling filters.
 
And it is also important how the downstream gear (amplifier and headphones/speakers) reacts to any introduced artifact - there's a whole huge world of possibilities there.
 
Regardless, we're talking about the last 1% of sound quality when you're considering most non-broken DACs - unless you're planning to connect the DAC to a weird load.

This.  I would hate to have to make a decision about a source component (or anything upstream of the transducer) with my Stax Lambdas, for example.  Or the big Maggies.  There simply is no transducer that brings out the reality of a recording like the Omega IIs.  And, they don't resolve as much "plankton" as the Maggies, or the Lambdas, for that matter.  What they, and I hope, the best DACs* do, is to resolve the critical mid-range in a way that lesser transducers cannot.  
 
Edit: *or any component of an interactive system