These HD600's are terrible, and so are ALL headphones! I give up!!
May 23, 2009 at 5:26 PM Post #121 of 325
my offer still stands - don't trash the cans send them to me...oh and if you talk anyone else out of this hobby they can also send their precious belongings to me too

after all this is a hobby for many of us and there are plenty of weirder hobbies out there!
remote control sailboats come to minde!
 
May 23, 2009 at 5:56 PM Post #122 of 325
I have the HD600s, and am not a huge fan of them. I also have a quite a few other well-regarded dynamic headphones. I also have several good Stax electrostatics - SR 404 and Omega 2 mk 1. I compare the sound of what I listen to through headphones with what I hear through my loudspeaker system for reference purposes. If I could, I would usually listen through loudspeakers, but I cannot do that for practical reasons (i.e. those with whom I share my house, i.e. my wife and daughters, need their peace and quiet).

I find that the electrostatics often sound pretty good, but sometimes a very clean signal via a Lehmann Black Cube Linear (with very good mains leads) to my recently-acquired D7000s (and sometimes my ALO UE9s) is also not too far from the sound of the loudspeakers, bearing in mind the fact that with headphones you don't get the physical movement of air of the sort you get with loudspeakers.

I have found, however, that it has taken years to find a headphone sound that I actually like. Sometimes I even prefer the O2s (through a Kimik-modfied 007t2 or 006t) to loudspeakers.

So, BHTX, you may find that some headphone systems would be enjoyable. Have you tried the Stax Omega?
 
May 23, 2009 at 6:02 PM Post #123 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Guess my earlier question was missed in the seas of text.

Besides the fact that testing with something other than your ears is pretty pointless, what did you test it with? A dummy head?



The headphones? I used my ears. The sound card? A calibration software I have on a CD.. sec, let me go get it.... Virtins Sound Card Instrument 1.2. Of course, there are different methods, but that was most handy at the moment.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Makenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Just curious, did you try to do the same sinegen and pink noise test with speakers? Obviously there's positioning and location and about 5000 other variables, but I'm curious as to whether some of us perceive certain frequency at different decibels, not just the headphones. I'd test but the only speaker I have is some piece of **** dell speakers


Yes, I have. I don't understand the rest of your question. If you're wondering if we all hear differently, yes, to an extent. It's not that big of a deal though, unless you have a hearing problem (a lot of people do and don't even realize it, which is why I recommend a thorough hearing test every so often. On the other hand, you might not want to know). A few years ago, I found out my wife has a significant loss of hearing in her left ear from around 4 KHz and up. She wasn't the least bit aware of it. Of course, since then, there's been a time or two that she's said she notices it. It's not a significant problem for her though.. probably been that way for most/all her life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Also, have you tried to sinegen with the headphones some distance away from you? I am curious as to how if any effect distance and environ has on the perception of different frequency spectrum.


Could go on for a while answering this question. These things are well documented.
 
May 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM Post #124 of 325
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what it is that you hope to accomplish with this thread. You didn't ask for help as far as I can tell. You made a declarative and provocative statement, one that was probably calculated to provoke people. You do seem to be taking on all commers, even when they are trying to offer up something helpful.

Perhaps pabbi1 is right and the thread is just a troll for people you can have a heated debate with.

I'm outta here, have fun with those who will continue to indulge you.
wink.gif


--Jerome
 
May 23, 2009 at 6:20 PM Post #125 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by kukrisna /img/forum/go_quote.gif
yes BHTX, I would appreciate a response to my 5 questions posted earlier...


Sorry 'bout that..

1) Wanted to enjoy listening to tunes by myself, without anyone else having to hear it. Also just out of interest. I enjoy listening to music. Also, I could listen while the wife is asleep.
2) I have before, but it's very seldom.
3) There's certainly enough info available on the net, especially in regards to materials. I might try it one of these days. Just wasn't planning on it.
4) Everything. I'm always up for finding new stuff, too.
5) haha.. I wish. Other than saxaphone in my highschool jazz bad, and cello for a short period.. no.
 
May 23, 2009 at 6:22 PM Post #126 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Perhaps pabbi1 is right and the thread is just a troll for people you can have a heated debate with.


Not at all. For one, I have a short list of phones to try in the future if I ever decide, which I didn't know existed. I'm not looking to debate anything. Was also curious about anyone else who shares any similar opinions about this headphone, or anything in general. As it turns out, there are a few, and not confined to this thread alone. I came here on a whim lastnight, and the first thread I saw was someone else complaining about their HD600's, noticing the same things I do about them. He was ridiculed by several people, simply because his findings didn't agree with the masses. With that said, I was aware of how I'd be treated here, regardless of what I said, even if I just stated an opinion.
 
May 23, 2009 at 6:36 PM Post #127 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I just received a pair of HD600's the other day, and I'm extremely disappointed, to say the least. I've also realized that there's no such thing as a headphone that's anywhere near accurate. These HD600's are no exception. I bought them as a result of YEARS of browsing the net (mainly this forum). I just knew they'd be the headphone for me. However, their frequency response is so terrible I find them tough to listen to, sometimes unbearable. They're beyond EQ'ing (even with Electri-Q VST plugin, which I had to use for years to make my worn out HD497's the least bit tolerable) because the response is so peaky in so many areas. By the time you've removed the most troublesome areas, there's nothing left. Upon using a combination of pink noise and a software based sinewave generator, I've observed the following: a broadband peak centered around 3.8 KHz (quickly begins rising at 2.5 KHz), a peak centered around 5.2 KHz, a peak at 6 KHz, another at 7 KHz, rising response at 10 KHz, and a huge peak at 12 KHz, along with much of the remaining highs being too much, until it very quickly drops off very steeply to almost nothing at 15 KHz. On top of the usual upper-midrange and treble mess, there's also a broadband increase in response somewhere around 1-1.5 KHz, maybe 500 Hz, 100 Hz (which I find particularly bothersome, and it also seems to be very common among full-size headphones. I think this is the result of the headphone driver's Fs [free-air resonant frequency, or the resonant freq of the headphone as a whole if it's a closed headphone]).. it's somewhat difficult to tell because the entire midbass is boosted about 4-5 dB (which also seems to be the case with almost ALL headphones). Below this, the lower frequencies quickly become less and less until they steeply fall off below 30 Hz. All of these things I've mentioned are only the most problematic areas, the entire response is a complete mess. It's extremely difficult to even pinpoint them because there's too many of them too close together.

I also want to make it clear once again that ALL headphones are like this, just in different areas. In fact, most seem to be even more bothersome than the HD600's. Like I said, it seems as though there's no such thing as a decent headphone. All the music you're hearing from your 'cans' is simply a mixture of so many peaks and dips that it often becomes unnoticable to the vast majority of consumers. However, I notice every bit of it, with every note that comes through these headphones, or any pair. My old HD497's were like this (highs were untolerable and most noticeable), and the same goes with AKG K701's, K601's, Beyerdynamic DT770's (disgusting!.. bass was unbearable), some older Koss, etc etc.. eveything I've ever tried. Therefore, I think it'd be very reasonable to assume that there's no such thing as a headphone with decent accuracy. They're ALL extremely "colored".

I realize that most of this forum will probably be tempted to flame me and tell me I'm crazy or that I don't know what I'm talking about. However, I'll just go ahead and say that I've been into loudspeaker design for decades, and an audio fanatic since before I was old enough to walk. Audio reproduction is an obsession I've always had, ever since I can remember (2 years old?). I've owned much more than my fair share of audio equipment, designed several pairs of loudspeakers, built a couple of amplifiers, spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years, etc. I know what I'm doing, and what I've said is true. I also think this is very valuable information, and I can only wish it would have been explained to me long ago, as it obviously would have saved me a lot of money and trouble. This headphone thing is a bit of a joke. You've all fallen for it, and so did I. The only difference is that I recognized it immediately, and you don't notice it like I do. When I first came across this forum, the first thing I noticed was that most people here aren't very knowledgeable about audio reproduction in general (even all the regulars who own dozens of pairs of headphones). All I can say is.. instead of being so quick to say I'm wrong about anything I've said here, you should all be VERY glad that you're all so unaware, and that your headphones don't bother you like they bother me.

I might have a go at IEM's, but I'm not holding my breath. It's my only hope though. And no, it's not my equipment, lol. While there are noticeable differences between DAC's and amplification, it's not huge, although differences do seem to be more apparent with headphones than loudspeakers. Also, output impedance seems to vary quite a bit between headphone amplifiers. But no, equipment isn't my problem. And if you've been tempted to say that it is, you've obviously only fallen victim to that BS as well..

Enjoy yourselves. I give up.




Good for you, are you trying to make ME and other to give up on headphones too ?

If not, dunno why you are still posting here ...

Theory is one thing, listening expirience something else, and i think most of us enjoj listening music, not trying to find what is wrong with particular headphones models ...

How ever, i dont want to get involved in some neverending arguing ...


Regards !
 
May 23, 2009 at 6:43 PM Post #128 of 325
No problem. I'm outta here. Hopefully someone will find something useful. And if you don't like HD600's, or find yourself swimming in headphones because you haven't found a decent set, you're not alone, and neither am I. Thanks to all those who offered helpful information.
 
May 23, 2009 at 7:02 PM Post #129 of 325
Hi there BHTX

Well, I find really interesting your point of view over headphones. You also seem to care more about numbers that people here, which I believe is good.

First, I wondered how you tried to EQ your headphones. You explain in one of your post, but unluckily I don't have enough time to read the whole thread. Well i recently bought a DAC but also EQ, the Behringer Ultracurve Pro DEQ2496 with 31band EQ... well you can actually look for it on the web.

So, even if my first intention was to have a DAC for use with the computer, and to have equipment for later when I buy some speakers to equalize the room they are in, I thought I could start EQ my headphones.

Well, i believe you already know it is a very very difficult task, so you should read this first:

Auditory environment

This also:

Stereophile: Between the Ears: the art and science of measuring headphones

It talks about FF (free-field) and DF (diffuse field). They are interesting to start with.
 
May 23, 2009 at 7:14 PM Post #130 of 325
HiFi is as much an art as a science so don't ever expect it to sound the same as live. Either you like the art of a speaker/headphone or you find another that you do. If you don't like any of them then that is your problem.
 
May 23, 2009 at 7:19 PM Post #131 of 325
I'm with you BHTX, for the while.

I'm frustrated to find weird sounds in headphones.

Once I asked a question to find a "honest" one (after some failures: Koss UR40, Sony Mdr-v6, Beyer Dt-150) and the answer was hd600.
Instead of buying this, I bought the k271 because it was closed (I needed a closed one, and it was supposed to sound like the hd600, according to some). Mistake (lacking bass, lacking highs, a bit harsh medium to upper mids; overall unrealistic sound).

So my next step was to buy a "real" HD600 (But my wallet wasn't full enough). I'm not sure about that, now.

Well, I hope you'll find a good one, so you could enlight me (us).
Maybe the e2c from Shure: Reference earphones, from a loudspeaker guru, or the ALO k701 from Steve Hoffman.

I agree mostly with this guy (BHTX), except that I don't want to give up (I don't see other option to listen to Steppenwolf "late at night/early in the morning" in a block full of neighbors).

Troll or not don't mean much, his arguments are valuable.
"Enjoy the music" neither. That's what he's trying to do, with a good sound (this is the point of head-fi, isn't it?).
"It never will sound like the real performance" neither (The point is the record sound).
 
May 23, 2009 at 7:19 PM Post #132 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I just received a pair of HD600's the other day, and I'm extremely disappointed, to say the least. I've also realized that there's no such thing as a headphone that's anywhere near accurate. These HD600's are no exception. I bought them as a result of YEARS of browsing the net (mainly this forum). I just knew they'd be the headphone for me. However, their frequency response is so terrible I find them tough to listen to, sometimes unbearable. They're beyond EQ'ing (even with Electri-Q VST plugin, which I had to use for years to make my worn out HD497's the least bit tolerable) because the response is so peaky in so many areas. By the time you've removed the most troublesome areas, there's nothing left. Upon using a combination of pink noise and a software based sinewave generator, I've observed the following: a broadband peak centered around 3.8 KHz (quickly begins rising at 2.5 KHz), a peak centered around 5.2 KHz, a peak at 6 KHz, another at 7 KHz, rising response at 10 KHz, and a huge peak at 12 KHz, along with much of the remaining highs being too much, until it very quickly drops off very steeply to almost nothing at 15 KHz. On top of the usual upper-midrange and treble mess, there's also a broadband increase in response somewhere around 1-1.5 KHz, maybe 500 Hz, 100 Hz (which I find particularly bothersome, and it also seems to be very common among full-size headphones. I think this is the result of the headphone driver's Fs [free-air resonant frequency, or the resonant freq of the headphone as a whole if it's a closed headphone]).. it's somewhat difficult to tell because the entire midbass is boosted about 4-5 dB (which also seems to be the case with almost ALL headphones). Below this, the lower frequencies quickly become less and less until they steeply fall off below 30 Hz. All of these things I've mentioned are only the most problematic areas, the entire response is a complete mess. It's extremely difficult to even pinpoint them because there's too many of them too close together.

I also want to make it clear once again that ALL headphones are like this, just in different areas. In fact, most seem to be even more bothersome than the HD600's. Like I said, it seems as though there's no such thing as a decent headphone. All the music you're hearing from your 'cans' is simply a mixture of so many peaks and dips that it often becomes unnoticable to the vast majority of consumers. However, I notice every bit of it, with every note that comes through these headphones, or any pair. My old HD497's were like this (highs were untolerable and most noticeable), and the same goes with AKG K701's, K601's, Beyerdynamic DT770's (disgusting!.. bass was unbearable), some older Koss, etc etc.. eveything I've ever tried. Therefore, I think it'd be very reasonable to assume that there's no such thing as a headphone with decent accuracy. They're ALL extremely "colored".

I realize that most of this forum will probably be tempted to flame me and tell me I'm crazy or that I don't know what I'm talking about. However, I'll just go ahead and say that I've been into loudspeaker design for decades, and an audio fanatic since before I was old enough to walk. Audio reproduction is an obsession I've always had, ever since I can remember (2 years old?). I've owned much more than my fair share of audio equipment, designed several pairs of loudspeakers, built a couple of amplifiers, spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years, etc. I know what I'm doing, and what I've said is true. I also think this is very valuable information, and I can only wish it would have been explained to me long ago, as it obviously would have saved me a lot of money and trouble. This headphone thing is a bit of a joke. You've all fallen for it, and so did I. The only difference is that I recognized it immediately, and you don't notice it like I do. When I first came across this forum, the first thing I noticed was that most people here aren't very knowledgeable about audio reproduction in general (even all the regulars who own dozens of pairs of headphones). All I can say is.. instead of being so quick to say I'm wrong about anything I've said here, you should all be VERY glad that you're all so unaware, and that your headphones don't bother you like they bother me.

I might have a go at IEM's, but I'm not holding my breath. It's my only hope though. And no, it's not my equipment, lol. While there are noticeable differences between DAC's and amplification, it's not huge, although differences do seem to be more apparent with headphones than loudspeakers. Also, output impedance seems to vary quite a bit between headphone amplifiers. But no, equipment isn't my problem. And if you've been tempted to say that it is, you've obviously only fallen victim to that BS as well..

Enjoy yourselves. I give up.



4/10 because it was an interesting read
 
May 23, 2009 at 7:34 PM Post #133 of 325
well in the OP's defence, I have only heard a handful of headphones that have even frequency response. My Mackie HR624 reference monitors are the most ruler flat sound I have ever heard, and the only headphone that matches their even reproduction of all frequencies is the Grado HP1000. Everything else has peaks or valleys, and I agree with the OP, that I find it very difficult to listen to such uneven response after knowing what flat response sounds like. Usually it is too much treble. It's not really some purity claim or anything for me, I just don't like the sound of peaks in response, or tonal inaccuracy, it always sounds bad to me.
 
May 23, 2009 at 7:46 PM Post #135 of 325
Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif
No problem. I'm outta here. Hopefully someone will find something useful. And if you don't like HD600's, or find yourself swimming in headphones because you haven't found a decent set, you're not alone, and neither am I. Thanks to all those who offered helpful information.


And you never did provide your frame of reference or to what you were comparing their sound. This is what really made this whole discussion futile.
 

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