[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by miscreant /img/forum/go_quote.gif a vocalist hears his/her voice through the bone structure mostly. thats one mega-coloration. how can you record THAT?

I don't think anyone's talking about that level of reproduction.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by miscreant /img/forum/go_quote.gif a vocalist hears his/her voice through the bone structure mostly. thats one mega-coloration. how can you record THAT?

Why do I want to hear what the vocalist hears while he/she is singing?

Hearing what was recorded, on the other hand, I'll go for that.

If I'm listening to a recording of what a vocalist is hearing while the vocalist is singing, then yeah, that's what I want to hear.

Like I said a minute ago, you're not getting it.. along with 95% here. I find this really odd, to say the least.

 

[miscreant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're missing the entire point. At an acoustic concert with instruments.. if they're in a large orchestra hall, I want to hear them there. If I'm at a typical rock concert with a very poorly implemented sound system cranked with ears bleeding, I want it that way.

You don't get it - that will not happen.. ever. or maybe it will happen someday.. whatever. Just another reason to become comfortably obsessed.. or excited.. for some people.

 

[hadouken]

Quote:

You're missing the entire point. At an acoustic concert with instruments.. if they're in a large orchestra hall, I want to hear them there. If I'm at a typical rock concert with a very poorly implemented sound system cranked with ears bleeding, I want it that way.

Like many people here, I'm not an audio engineer and have no experience in the business - I've never recorded anything, only listened. But how can you expect two small transducers strapped to the side of your head to reproduce a huge open space constructed of many different materials/structures with many different acoustic properties? It seems to me that what you're after is physically impossible. You're not going to hear everything how it was originally recorded because you simply weren't there. I'm sure you'd want to get as close to this as possible though and I would imagine there's a set of headphones out there that would do the job respectably, I've read a lot about the HD600's too and I dont think I've ever read them described as neutral, so I think judging all headphones based on the HD600's is bad. Again, I'm nowhere near a pro, so if I'm typing rubbish here then let me know.

You also said that you want nothing but neutrality but then you say that after EQ'ing the crap out of your headphones, there's "nothing left" - that confuses me, surely that's how you want them? You've been listening to neutral loudspeakers for a long time, would you describe them as having "nothing left" too?

Excellent thread though, interesting to read what people think. Personally, I don't want to analyze music, I want to enjoy it. It would also be very boring if every headphone manufacturer strode towards neutrality and accuray, what would be the point of this forum if every headphone sounded the same? With electronic music (my favourite genre) it's all open to interpretation imo, how one "instrument" should sound will vary depending on who you ask, so it's not really about accuracy but about how that individual wants to hear that "instrument" reproduced and what he/she thinks it should sound like.

Just my 2 cents anyway.

 

[greggf]

If the OP is, as he confidently states, not nuts - although I have my doubts, and so will the rest of you as this thread progresses - then perhaps what he posted earlier on Head-Fi explains it all:


"Anyway, regardless, it definitely isn't tinnitus (which is very good news for you, believe me). I suffer from that to the point of suicidal tendencies, seriously."


Can someone with tinnitus so bad that it causes the person to consider suicide be taken seriously when it comes to anything - anything - audio, let alone headphones?

 

[karthur]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well at least the headphones shouldnt have obvious resonances making them sound like headphones as a start

You're right, but what should they sound like then? Perhaps a minitature orchestra that are perched along the insides of my earlobes, or maybe Diana Krall in bed with me singing in my ear (I wish). The HD600s are good headphones, somewhat dark, and that is great for certain kinds of music. For example if I want to reproduce as close as possible being at a Guns n Roses concert I will use my Grados....there is not one headphone for everything and that is why most people involed in this hobby own way too many of them.

 

[miscreant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do I want to hear what the vocalist hears while he/she is singing? Hearing what was recorded, on the other hand, I'll go for that. If I'm listening to a recording of what a vocalist is hearing while the vocalist is singing, then yeah, that's what I want to hear. Like I said a minute ago, you're not getting it.. along with 95% here. I find this really odd, to say the least.

i am happy that i dont get it. feeling really calm and peaceful. i like my phones. mmmmm...

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif Like many people here, I'm not an audio engineer and have no experience in the business - I've never recorded anything, only listened. But how can you expect two small transducers strapped to the side of your head to reproduce a huge open space constructed of many different materials/structures with many different acoustic properties? It seems to me that what you're after is physically impossible.

It isn't. I'm not looking for headphones to make me feel like I'm there. If I was doing that, I'd be looking for binaural recordings. Once again (and again and again?), I want to be able to hear what was recorded the majority of the time. It can't be 100% perfect, but it can be close, and it's not that difficult to do (except with headphones?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're not going to hear everything how it was originally recorded because you simply weren't there.

Again, if I wanted to create the illusion that I was there, that's very difficult (impossible?) to do.. although binaural recordings CAN seem VERY close (yes, even on lousy headphones). With typical recordings though, it's next to impossible. However, it's not difficult to be bothered by an audio system's sound signature on everything you listen to, to the point where it becomes distracting while you're trying to enjoy your music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif You also said that you want nothing but neutrality but then you say that after EQ'ing the crap out of your headphones, there's "nothing left" - that confuses me, surely that's how you want them? You've been listening to neutral loudspeakers for a long time, would you describe them as having "nothing left" too?

No, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The response of these headphones (and all headphones I've tried) have so many narrow peaks (high Q), that EQ'ing them not only becomes very difficult, but impossible. EQ isn't a solution for everything. Kinda like using duct tape or super glue to put something back together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif Personally, I don't want to analyze music, I want to enjoy it.

Same here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif It would also be very boring if every headphone manufacturer strode towards neutrality and accuray

For the most part, I disagree. I get most of my excitement from the music, not sizzle and boom from a lousy piece of audio gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif What would be the point of this forum if every headphone sounded the same? With electronic music (my favourite genre) it's all open to interpretation imo, how one "instrument" should sound will vary depending on who you ask, so it's not really about accuracy but about how that individual wants to hear that "instrument" reproduced and what he/she thinks it should sound like.

I listen to different types of electronic music as well from time to time.. usually lounge and downtempo (a lot of people might think it's kinda boring?). Anyway, true, it's not real instruments. However, the person who made the recording likely wanted it to sound a certain way, and I'd like to hear it that way too. Aside from all of that.. regardless of what a person "thinks it should sound like", that sound is of course an actual waveform. If a headphone modifies it substantially, it no longer sounds the same.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif If the OP is, as he confidently states, not nuts - although I have my doubts, and so will the rest of you as this thread progresses - then perhaps what he posted earlier on Head-Fi explains it all: "Anyway, regardless, it definitely isn't tinnitus (which is very good news for you, believe me). I suffer from that to the point of suicidal tendencies, seriously." Can someone with tinnitus so bad that it causes the person to consider suicide be taken seriously when it comes to anything - anything - audio, let alone headphones?

My hearing is fine. Yes, I suffer from tinnitus. And yes, it bothers me sometimes, to the point where I can't sleep. And I'm far from the only one around here with this problem. Thanks for another attempt at ridiculing me. I hope you're feeling better about yourself.

 

[miscreant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, the person who made the recording likely wanted it to sound a certain way, and I'd like to hear it that way too. Aside from all of that.. regardless of what a person "thinks it should sound like", that sound is of course an actual waveform. If a headphone modifies it substantially, it no longer sounds the same.

so. the only way to really solve your problem is to make an global law that only 1 pair of headphone is allowed... and only 1 set of speakers. so YOU could listen what the engineer was listening. it sound crazy but it is the only way!

 

[Oggranak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif This headphone thing is a bit of a joke. You've all fallen for it, and so did I. The only difference is that I recognized it immediately, and you don't notice it like I do. When I first came across this forum, the first thing I noticed was that most people here aren't very knowledgeable about audio reproduction in general (even all the regulars who own dozens of pairs of headphones). All I can say is.. instead of being so quick to say I'm wrong about anything I've said here, you should all be VERY glad that you're all so unaware, and that your headphones don't bother you like they bother me.

What headphone amps have you used? Have you tried electrostats? DT48s (supposedly accurate)? Any of the other extremely high-end headphones? You tried nothing past midrange (and perhaps haven't even heard a proper headphone amp?) and then said all headphones were a joke, well, here's what I have to say to that: You're a ****ing idiot.

Maybe it's truer audiophilia, but obsessing over numbers and flatness, IMO, is just stupid. Personally, I don't judge audio gear by how it measures up and how flat its response it. I judge it by how pleasing it sounds to my ears when I listen to my favourite music. I think people who obsess over details, who compare using numbers and charts (take it, in this case, to mean a metaphorical chart, IE your interpretation of the frequency responce/etc.), they're a joke.

And by the way, here's a small lesson for you: Don't come on and complain that we'll probably 'just flame you' for this, then flame all of us. What goes around comes around.

Correct me if I'm wrong about the headphone amp thing, because I didn't see you say that you had or hadn't used one.

 

[steviebee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can someone with tinnitus so bad that it causes the person to consider suicide be taken seriously when it comes to anything - anything - audio, let alone headphones?

Wow....speechless as to your intent here. You may want to rethink that.

BHTX -while I disagree (or rather, your experience is not mine), I kinda get what you mean. And I agree with Uncle Erik, stick around...

 

[Arainach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think most of you just aren't getting it. I want a headphone without this. Is that so much to ask?

....yes?

You seem to forget that these recordings are mastered on speakers/headphones. Speakers/headphones that don't have a magical 100% flat response because it DOESN'T EXIST. Also, the fact that most (all?) sane people listen to headphones/speakers and try to find ones that sound good rather than trying to match some arbitrary mathematical line.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arainach /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....yes? You seem to forget that these recordings are mastered on speakers/headphones. Speakers/headphones that don't have a magical 100% flat response because it DOESN'T EXIST. Also, the fact that most (all?) sane people listen to headphones/speakers and try to find ones that sound good rather than trying to match some arbitrary mathematical line.

Jeez, I've been wondering when someone was going to say this. Anyway, in the case that the recording was mastered on loudspeakers with such a specific sound signature (90% of the time?.. especially with more popular music), I don't want to hear the results of that AND my headphones as well.

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why is it world class?

World class status cannot be formed by one person, a majority of an opinion forms this basis. Therefore several amps fall into this category, again this is of opinion and will vary from individual.

That is the best headphone amps on the planet. Do you think yours fall into that space? And why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because it's expensive?

Excellent amps will cost you, that has been my experience. That’s not to same all amps that are expensive are great either. Amps generally fall into a price class for a good reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because people at this forum have said that it is???

Yes definitely, I value people’s opinions and thoughts. Where else can you start from, of course I have my own thoughts and opinions as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif In all seriousness though, have you dealt with any of these amplifiers that you refer to as "world class"?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif What makes them seem so great to you?

The music.