[hadouken]

Thanks for your reply BHTX.

It's clear to me that you're an audio purist, you want everything as it was intended. OK, you don't need to feel like you're there (although I never really implied that, I was just saying that the environment must surely have an effect on the recorded sound) but you want to hear what the artist heard when they recorded the piece. Again, that seems kind of impossible to me, surely a piece of sound must go through so many processes during the recording, encoding, delivery, playback etc that not only do you need an evolution in audio playback but how its recorded, encoded etc. As stated before, I'm not really clued in on how audio is recorded but from my understanding, there's someone in the recording studio that adjusts levels etc, I've heard terms like "exciters" used before. So when you're adjusting the EQ to a more "neutral" level, how do you know that you're not quitening/loudening (sp?) certain instruments that weren't supposed to be? E.g. a violin might be too loud according to whatever process you're using to equalising your headphones but what if that violin was supposed to be loud anyway?

You have really bad tinnitus too, does that have an effect on what your ears perceive? To my knowledge, tinnitus is damage to your hearing, so surely with your condition, hearing recordings as they were intended will be very difficult, if not impossible because your own ears are physically incapable of hearing whats being played properly?

For me, there are so many variables and factors that will block attempts at true accuracy that its almost futile attempting to achieve it, so all I can do is enjoy the music, after all, the details are still there in the music, its just that the levels are a little off.

Quote:

For the most part, I disagree. I get most of my excitement from the music, not sizzle and boom from a lousy piece of audio gear.

Seems to me that you have some strong prejudices towards headphones anyway, so I think that your mind is firmly closed on this subject. I try to keep an open mind and listen to what everyone has to say, I don't appreciate you calling headphones "lousy" because I'm obviously a fan of them, being here. I do appreciate that it's your opinions though and it's nice to hear what you think.

It's a shame that some people get overly offended and resort to insults and personal attacks etc but like Erik says, it's great to have sceptics around to keep us questioning everything.

 

[Mr C]

Getting total perfection in headphones is something we will probably never see, a straight line for the frequency response graph.
What you are looking for are headphones that sound exactly like the best monitoring speakers would, the problem is the best headphones atm cost 15k more or less (for those still in production) and the best speakers cost around 200k.
Unless you want to have two of these Kharma International | Loudspeakers | Exquisite | Grand Exquisite around you head I guess you should avoid using headphones or just get used to it.
Once again if you have never enjoyed using headphones why are you here?

btw companies dont try to make totally neutral headphones because they would probably cost a lot and not that many people are willing to pay 10k+ on a pair of headphones that cant be used with any source/amp combo that costs under 5K.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHTX /img/forum/go_quote.gif On the other hand, I'm trying to listen to some Diana Krall.. but everything just sounds wrong. Especially the top end of cymbals. The bass is a little bloated at times. The drums sound kinda tubby. The horns sound funny. Every "S" and "T" etc from her lips is slightly exaggerated in a way that I find annoying. Most people would call this "detailed". I just think it sounds wrong. How do I know it's wrong? Because I've heard these songs so many times. And because these same tonal characteristics are applied to everything I play.

Heard them on what through what? You've been in the room with Ms. Krall and listened to her sing with no amplification? You've sat center stage, row five in an acoustically well designed concert hall and listened to her? HOW have you "heard" her?

In reading through this thread I've yet to come across where you really have given your frame of reference. Forgive me if I've missed it, but exactly to WHAT are you comparing the sound of the headphones? What speakers, what amplification, what source, what recording, what room size? All of these are pertinent, which is why most reviews in most mags or online sites include such information.

Provide a true frame of reference, and then maybe someone can help.

 

[tdogzthmn]

Maybe the OP would like the DT48? Having a real amp makes all the difference as I am leaning with MiniMax. Some recordings fell like I am there, its amazing to hear.

 

[mark_h]

Bleep:

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Bleep:

 

[jsaliga]

Wow, all of this because one person doesn't like headphones? Does there always have to be a "technical" reason to explain why someone just isn't getting on very well with headphones? I'm genuinely curious.

I went through several sets of cans when I first joined Head-Fi: Senn HD6550, AKG K701, Grado RS-1, and Beyer DT880s. They all had their strenghts but none could hold a candle to my Omega MaxHemp single-driver loudspeakers, and after a time I ended up selling them all off. Many months went by and I didn't miss the headphones one bit.

But things change. About three or four months ago my wife began a very serious struggle with insomnia. She was getting about an hour of sleep per night, though she is doing much better now. I work mostly out of my home office, and when I am not on the phone with a client I am usually listening to music while I work. My wife is out of the house at work most weekdays. But to make a long story short I got back into headphones so I could listen to music when my wife is home. I did not want my music to deprive her of a chance to get some sleep, even if only for an hour or so.

Right now I own two pair of phones: Grado GS-1000s and Audio Technica ATH-W5000. Are they as good as my speakers? No, they're not even close. Can I enjoy listening to music with them? Yes I can, so long as I stop comparing them to my speakers. Given a choice of listening to music through my headphones or not at all I will take headphones any time.

BHTX, if headphones are that detestable to you then why not just give them up if that is an option? Sorry if you explained all of this before as I haven't read through the entire thread (some of it got a bit too testy to make for good reading). If you are happy with loudspeakers then why rock the boat with something that clearly doesn't seem to be compaitble with how you wish to enjoy music? Seems like an awful lot of wasted effort to me.

And just some food for thought...you had to expect something of a rough reception given your provocative thread title. Head-Fi is, after all, a site devoted to the enthusiast of headphone listening. I think there is room for decenting opinion here...but "all headphones are terrible" is bound to be met with some strong criticism. I'm just sayin'.

--Jerome

 

[Makenshi]

Guess my earlier question was missed in the seas of text.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makenshi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Besides the fact that testing with something other than your ears is pretty pointless, what did you test it with? A dummy head? Just curious, did you try to do the same sinegen and pink noise test with speakers? Obviously there's positioning and location and about 5000 other variables, but I'm curious as to whether some of us perceive certain frequency at different decibels, not just the headphones. I'd test but the only speaker I have is some piece of **** dell speakers

Also, have you tried to sinegen with the headphones some distance away from you? I am curious as to how if any effect distance and environ has on the perception of different frequency spectrum.

 

[kukrisna]

yes BHTX, I would appreciate a response to my 5 questions posted earlier...

 

[yklee118]

It sounds like many good and somewhat bad heated arguments. All have some valid point. I have been to many concerts (nothing rock related) in both jazz and classical. The Disney Concert Hall, LA Phil, Berliner Philharmonic, just to name a few. Plus one of my favorite jazz Quintets here in Hamburg, Germany. To obtain what most purists are look for, one would rather ditch the speakers and headphones. Spend the money or go to a place where music is served. Going to concerts may be the best solution for those who seek the best possible sound. I have played in an orchestra many years ago and the instrument I still own is a custom made Cello. I still play the cello and I have basically tuned my speakers and headphones in a way that may help those who have extremely sensitive hearing.

None the less, no headphone or high-end speaker system will have the same exact audio qualities as the actual event or recording. There is still maybe a close match to what listeners are looking for though. It is find out what equipment was used to master the recording and from there listening bliss could be obtained. Unfortunately this would mean many things will have to change in terms of lifestyle. (just rambling a bit sorry for that).

I have rather sensitive hearing, however I also possess exceptional tolerance to these super high-frequencies, hence they bother me, yet not annoy me either. I have many reference class headphones, plus some everyday usage phones. I could say that I have the right mixture of headphone amp, headphones, and sources to provide me excellent listening pleasure. It is not like I can take my speaker system with me where ever I go that is. It would be better, however impractical.

So before telling everybody here that All headphones are crap and will never sound like the actual recording, ask yourself a simple question. If obtaining the purest possible sound, recording or otherwise, every signal being recorded has to be through audio devices so something will be added or subtracted based on the equipment used?

Hence the idea of pure audio can only be true if the listener hears the actual event rather than the recording. I know this fact to be true since my sound system was tuned by a conductor and sound engineer from the LA Philharmonic now Berliner Philharmonic (retiring in 2010 age 76).

Everybody have a great month of May and looking forward to June.

Take care

 

[pabbi1]

My point is that the title is misleading - it is NOT just hd600 he finds 'terrible', but all headphones. So, make that the argument, not just the hd600.

This also seems just a bit Don Quixote-ish.

Would the OP also go to photo.net and say 'Cameras all suck, because the resulting pictures are not real'? I see little difference, and just think this is a (successful) troll.

Success=Fail.

Edit: Oh, and put it in 'Sound Science' - a more appropriate forum for such.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdogzthmn /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe the OP would like the DT48? Having a real amp makes all the difference as I am leaning with MiniMax. Some recordings fell like I am there, its amazing to hear.

I doubt it. He seems to hate all headphones.

 

[davidc2]

I don't know if the OP is right or wrong to be disappointed with headphones but I'd like to add to a point already made in a number of subsequent posts.

The best - the very best - we audiophiles can ask for is to listen to an album in a room with the same studio speakers used by the artist, sound engineer and producer during mix down. Whatever sound they heard - and were happy with - is the sound we want. We will not be able to hear what the voices and instruments sounded like in the live room or sound proofed room, or at a live concert because microphones, eq-ing, other processing and production taste all impose changes on what groups of voices and instruments sound like recorded.

I can say that as a drummer, I have always been surprised at how different my kit sounds after it is recorded and in the mixing process; no squeaks, no buzzes, substantial compression etc. Similarly, at live events, my bass drum (for example) miked up and coming over the pa was nothing like the real thing from three feet away. Amplification added a whole different character. This is just an observation. We cannot really expect to hear wholly real voices and real - "neutral" -instruments in recordings. The best we can get is what was heard on the studio monitors when the final mix was played back - and of course even this is asking too much.

Personally, I cannot afford a set of studio class monitors (main, not intermediate or nearfield) and if I could, I would then have to have a large house so I could kit out rooms with a selection of studio monitors to try to hear what was heard at the end of mixdown of records made in different studios. And how would you know what desk and monitors were used for each album? Madness...

The point here is that the idea of a sort of Holy Grail headphone - the Platonic ideal - is likely to lead to disappointment. But some headphones definitely sound better to us than others, and it's still great fun trying different headphones and discovering which ones appeal and which don't. For me, all this means that for my own music enjoyment I just pick headphones that give me musical pleasure and don't worry about their neutrality or accuracy too much.

 

[KONAKONA]

@ OP, 2/10, try again later.

Don't matter if its accurate, just if it sounds good. I'm currently enjoying some jazz on my extremely inaccurate Q40s. Note the word enjoying back there.

Once you start measuring the frequency response instead of just listening to music, your done for. Get a job at headroom before its too late.

 

[BHTX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for your reply BHTX. It's clear to me that you're an audio purist, you want everything as it was intended. OK, you don't need to feel like you're there (although I never really implied that, I was just saying that the environment must surely have an effect on the recorded sound) but you want to hear what the artist heard when they recorded the piece. Again, that seems kind of impossible to me, surely a piece of sound must go through so many processes during the recording, encoding, delivery, playback etc that not only do you need an evolution in audio playback but how its recorded, encoded etc. As stated before, I'm not really clued in on how audio is recorded but from my understanding, there's someone in the recording studio that adjusts levels etc, I've heard terms like "exciters" used before. So when you're adjusting the EQ to a more "neutral" level, how do you know that you're not quitening/loudening (sp?) certain instruments that weren't supposed to be? E.g. a violin might be too loud according to whatever process you're using to equalising your headphones but what if that violin was supposed to be loud anyway?

Yep, I typically don't like the way most albums are recorded, but there's nothing I can do about that. I can live with it just for that reason (I have to). I'm surprised at the level of performance from headphones which are highly regarded here, and I wasn't expecting things to turn out this way, hence this thread. As for adjusting an EQ, it's different with headphones because not only is a flat response non-existent with them, but measuring them is also difficult. And once you measure them, then what? The resulting information is completely useless because there's no reference point for flat. Therefore, the only thing to use is your ears, and hopefully your music will sound better when you're done. Yeah, very informal, but it's the only relatively easy way. Using EQ on headphones, I don't listen to how I think an instrument should sound on a particular recording. Instead, use pink noise at a very low level (Colors of noise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and a variable signal generator (software is fine). Examining the pink noise, no area of the frequency response should be more noticeable than another. This sound is very familiar to me, and it's very easy to locate a problematic area, especially if there's only 1-2 of them. Once you've found the issue, raise/lower it and adjust the Q as needed. Distinguishing a large hump from a narrow peak is usually no big deal right off the bat, but adjusting the width to get it as close as possible is important. Peaks are easy to find, dips can be a bit more difficult sometimes (peaks are usually more bothersome, too). Same goes for the sinewave gen.. continuously moving the dial/slider/whatever very slowly from bottom-top/top-bottom, it's easy to notice when things suddenly become loud as **** (I usually keep the volume of noise and tones just loud enough to hear all of it reliably). If/when it does, there's a problem, fix it. If there's only a couple minor spots, it's really easy to do. And when you're done, fire up a song you're very familiar with.. particularly one that made the headphone's problems so noticeable. Those problems you attempted to deal with should be reduced or inaudible. Anyway, that's how I do it. And it works just fine, except with headphones. As previously mentioned, a couple of issues can be alleviated, but it's such a mess it's impossible to patch. And that's all EQ is, an easy patch.. not a fix everything miracle tool. Personally, I don't use much if any EQ on loudspeakers, except for the lowest octaves for room modes, as I usually don't need to. If I do use it anywhere else, it's not that bad, and only some slight adjustment is needed.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have really bad tinnitus too, does that have an effect on what your ears perceive? To my knowledge, tinnitus is damage to your hearing, so surely with your condition, hearing recordings as they were intended will be very difficult, if not impossible because your own ears are physically incapable of hearing whats being played properly?

I've had my hearing tested several times over recent years and score above average. Tinnitus doesn't always = hearing loss. However, continuous high frequencies do tend to make it worse, even at low levels. If anything, I probably have a slightly more difficult time identifying a headphone's problems at the very highest frequencies, because I sometimes find myself having to listen through the tinnitus when dealing with an area anywhere near it. This in itself isn't a big deal though. The annoyance of the tinnitus.. that's another story.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif For me, there are so many variables and factors that will block attempts at true accuracy that its almost futile attempting to achieve it, so all I can do is enjoy the music, after all, the details are still there in the music, its just that the levels are a little off.

I know what you mean, and I agree that so many people go overboard with it. And I know everyone here sees me as doing this, but it's just not the case. All I'm asking for is a relatively flat frequency response from a headphone. Frequency response is only a small part of perceived sound. With headphones, I really didn't have much more expectation than that.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif Seems to me that you have some strong prejudices towards headphones anyway, so I think that your mind is firmly closed on this subject. I try to keep an open mind and listen to what everyone has to say, I don't appreciate you calling headphones "lousy" because I'm obviously a fan of them, being here. I do appreciate that it's your opinions though and it's nice to hear what you think.

No prejudices at all. I only wanted a reasonably neutral sound from headphones. With that, they'd be easy for me to enjoy. As for calling headphones lousy, I see how you might have been offended by that word in the context it was used. I didn't just mean headphones specifically. What I meant was.. I don't get much excitement from things like an 18" woofer thumping my genitals, as some people seem to. I'm well aware what it sounds like, and it just doesn't get me off. Sure, things like that are neat, but it quickly gets boring. I enjoy listening to all sorts of music though. Anyway, it was just a careless use of the word, and I should have been more careful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hadouken /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's a shame that some people get overly offended and resort to insults and personal attacks etc but like Erik says, it's great to have sceptics around to keep us questioning everything.

Agreed! I really don't see how I'm skeptic though. A skeptic in regards to what? These headphones? They don't sound right to me. I'm not doubting that anyone likes them. After all, it's the only thing I had to go by, so I ended up buying them. Do I doubt that most people notice their flaws? Yes. Is that a bad thing? No! If you're happy with them, that's good, and in the end that's all that matters.

 

[fluffygdog95]

It seems as if you have given up all hope. If you do not try things from an objective point, you are not getting the true answer to the question you ask. Take the situation you eat a chocolate candy. You find it to be quite tasty. After you ingest the candy, someone informs you that it was a chocolate covered beetle. Instantly you make gagging noises and possibly throw-up. No way would you try another one, knowing that it was indeed a chocolate covered beetle.

If one is in a negative/positive state of mind, they do not get a true answer. Every reaction/observation will be skewed from the mind's perspective.

I do not know if anyone understands what I am trying to convey, but it was worth a shot.