[uchihaitachi]

If the ear impressions are perfect, is there a possibility of a refit requirement?

 

[DougofTheAbaci]

If the ear impressions are perfect, is there a possibility of a refit requirement?

You can have perfect impressions and the Wizard do a perfect job and you'd still have the possibility of refits. That's just the nature of anything bespoke; so many variables come into play that, sometimes, things just don't work out as you'd like.

However, I get the impression refits are the exception and not the rule. If you're reticence for getting customs is that you'll have to do a refit then just make sure you get a good audiologist who knows what they're doing and you should be fine. Worst case scenario you have to wait a couple extra weeks for an amazing set of headphones that you're going to keep for a very long time.

 

[FullCircle]

Quote:

You can have perfect impressions and the Wizard do a perfect job and you'd still have the possibility of refits. That's just the nature of anything bespoke; so many variables come into play that, sometimes, things just don't work out as you'd like.

However, I get the impression refits are the exception and not the rule. If you're reticence for getting customs is that you'll have to do a refit then just make sure you get a good audiologist who knows what they're doing and you should be fine. Worst case scenario you have to wait a couple extra weeks for an amazing set of headphones that you're going to keep for a very long time.

 
      Beyond that, for some ears, due to their physical shape, CIEMs are essentially impossible or impracticle.
 
      For a good read about the ever ellusive "perfect ear mold impression"  see: http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/ear-impressions-art-or-science-1186
 
 
      Ulitmatley CIEMs are a gamble, some people throw the dice and come up short, some people come up as a winner.   I suspect most do win, industry wide, as if that were not the case, CIEMs would not be as popular as they are today.  
 
That said,
 
Viva La Revolution
 

 
 

 

[uchihaitachi]

Dear Wizard,
 
Do you have any statistics on the number of refits that are requested given that the ear molds themselves were created properly?

 

[FullCircle]

I think there is far more to this than you think there is.
 
For example, jaw movement.  An ear mold impression can not account for this, as the impression is taken while the jaw in in a static position. Open or closed the jaw is still in a static postion.
 
Further more, the CIEM is static, while the ear canal is dynamic. The whole idea of trying to "cork" off a dynamic hole with a static object is really impractical and rather obtuse. The reality is in order to seal off a dynamic hole, more appropriately, a dynamic "cork" should be used. (IE the ear tip of an IEM) If you follow the Hearing Aid industry, the industry has really given up on custom hearing aids and are now focussing on produceing hearing aids with dynamic ear tips. (Which is also causeing the death of ear mold impression taking skills and killing off the art of building custom hearing aids.....  but that is a different topic)
 
As a result of the hearing aid industry shifting to dynamic style hearing aids they found:
 
1) An increase in sales
2) An increase in satisfied customers
 
We have customers that request refits due to the fact they can not lay down with their CIEMs in. Well honestly, that is really pushing the limitation of things, as in order to insure an optimal fit, the ear mold impression should be taken while the customer is laying down.   Or another customer, that says, "When I smile I lose the seal."  Again, same issue, a static ear mold impression can not represent the shape of the ear while "smiling." We have customers that say "when I push on them, they hurt." We also have customers that do not fully comprehend how to insert CIEMs, and send in their CIEMs without ever inserting them properly.
 
We do have an example of this on head fi, and it may be even on this thread, as I requested the owner to post pictures.  He did so, and it was obvious to me, and forum members, that the issue was the method of insertion.
 
So really "statistics" mean little, as the "human" factor throws every thing off.  
 
I will say this, for the year 2012, there was only once customer that I feel has ears that are essentially impossible to fit.
 
After attempting 3-4 times to rebuild his CIEMs, we offered to:
 
1) Continue to rebuild his CIEMs
 
2) Build his CIEM into a Ai style product
 
or
 
3) If he was to sell his CIEMs we would
 
A) Waive the owners transfer fee
B) All art requests would be done for free for the second owner
 
We offered this in order to maintian the resale value of the CIEM.
 
We can not offer a refund, obviously after sinking over 60 man hours into a single set of CIEMs  we are actually deeper in the hole as the value of the CIEMs themselves.
 
None the less, we will still maintain refit policy if required.
 
The end result is, understand that CIEMs are not for everyone, IEMs are obviously not for every one either. But ultimately, for the main, they do work for a lot of people. This is rather obviuos, as if they did not, there would be no demand for CIEMs or IEMs.
 
 
 
Wizard

 

[caracara08]

very informative post.  

 

[Mimouille]

Quote:

I think there is far more to this than you think there is.
 
For example, jaw movement.  An ear mold impression can not account for this, as the impression is taken while the jaw in in a static position. Open or closed the jaw is still in a static postion.
 
Further more, the CIEM is static, while the ear canal is dynamic. The whole idea of trying to "cork" off a dynamic hole with a static object is really impractical and rather obtuse. The reality is in order to seal off a dynamic hole, more appropriately, a dynamic "cork" should be used. (IE the ear tip of an IEM) If you follow the Hearing Aid industry, the industry has really given up on custom hearing aids and are now focussing on produceing hearing aids with dynamic ear tips. (Which is also causeing the death of ear mold impression taking skills and killing off the art of building custom hearing aids.....  but that is a different topic)
 
As a result of the hearing aid industry shifting to dynamic style hearing aids they found:
 
1) An increase in sales
2) An increase in satisfied customers
 
We have customers that request refits due to the fact they can not lay down with their CIEMs in. Well honestly, that is really pushing the limitation of things, as in order to insure an optimal fit, the ear mold impression should be taken while the customer is laying down.   Or another customer, that says, "When I smile I lose the seal."  Again, same issue, a static ear mold impression can not represent the shape of the ear while "smiling." We have customers that say "when I push on them, they hurt." We also have customers that do not fully comprehend how to insert CIEMs, and send in their CIEMs without ever inserting them properly.
 
We do have an example of this on head fi, and it may be even on this thread, as I requested the owner to post pictures.  He did so, and it was obvious to me, and forum members, that the issue was the method of insertion.
 
So really "statistics" mean little, as the "human" factor throws every thing off.  
 
I will say this, for the year 2012, there was only once customer that I feel has ears that are essentially impossible to fit.
 
After attempting 3-4 times to rebuild his CIEMs, we offered to:
 
1) Continue to rebuild his CIEMs
 
2) Build his CIEM into a Ai style product
 
or
 
3) If he was to sell his CIEMs we would
 
A) Waive the owners transfer fee
B) All art requests would be done for free for the second owner
 
We offered this in order to maintian the resale value of the CIEM.
 
We can not offer a refund, obviously after sinking over 60 man hours into a single set of CIEMs  we are actually deeper in the hole as the value of the CIEMs themselves.
 
None the less, we will still maintain refit policy if required.
 
The end result is, understand that CIEMs are not for everyone, IEMs are obviously not for every one either. But ultimately, for the main, they do work for a lot of people. This is rather obviuos, as if they did not, there would be no demand for CIEMs or IEMs.
 
 
 
Wizard

You could have offered to remold his ears instead of his ciems. More painful but more straightforward.

 

[DigitalFreak]

Some rather interesting findings music wise on my end with the 4A's. I was going through some old boxes today and ran across a handful of old CD's i haven't heard in a good 10 years. I decided to rip them to my laptop and gave everything a quick listen. Most of the stuff sounds pretty good or acceptably so. There's these two CD's though that sound like complete crap on the 4A. Everything sounds hazy and the tonality sounds really off. I tried these two CD's on other gear I had on hand and it sounds passable on some of my headphones but what surprised me was how the 4A took a bad recording and showed me how bad it really was.

 

[uchihaitachi]

Quote:

I think there is far more to this than you think there is.
 
For example, jaw movement.  An ear mold impression can not account for this, as the impression is taken while the jaw in in a static position. Open or closed the jaw is still in a static postion.
 
Further more, the CIEM is static, while the ear canal is dynamic. The whole idea of trying to "cork" off a dynamic hole with a static object is really impractical and rather obtuse. The reality is in order to seal off a dynamic hole, more appropriately, a dynamic "cork" should be used. (IE the ear tip of an IEM) If you follow the Hearing Aid industry, the industry has really given up on custom hearing aids and are now focussing on produceing hearing aids with dynamic ear tips. (Which is also causeing the death of ear mold impression taking skills and killing off the art of building custom hearing aids.....  but that is a different topic)
 
As a result of the hearing aid industry shifting to dynamic style hearing aids they found:
 
1) An increase in sales
2) An increase in satisfied customers
 
We have customers that request refits due to the fact they can not lay down with their CIEMs in. Well honestly, that is really pushing the limitation of things, as in order to insure an optimal fit, the ear mold impression should be taken while the customer is laying down.   Or another customer, that says, "When I smile I lose the seal."  Again, same issue, a static ear mold impression can not represent the shape of the ear while "smiling." We have customers that say "when I push on them, they hurt." We also have customers that do not fully comprehend how to insert CIEMs, and send in their CIEMs without ever inserting them properly.
 
We do have an example of this on head fi, and it may be even on this thread, as I requested the owner to post pictures.  He did so, and it was obvious to me, and forum members, that the issue was the method of insertion.
 
So really "statistics" mean little, as the "human" factor throws every thing off.  
 
I will say this, for the year 2012, there was only once customer that I feel has ears that are essentially impossible to fit.
 
After attempting 3-4 times to rebuild his CIEMs, we offered to:
 
1) Continue to rebuild his CIEMs
 
2) Build his CIEM into a Ai style product
 
or
 
3) If he was to sell his CIEMs we would
 
A) Waive the owners transfer fee
B) All art requests would be done for free for the second owner
 
We offered this in order to maintian the resale value of the CIEM.
 
We can not offer a refund, obviously after sinking over 60 man hours into a single set of CIEMs  we are actually deeper in the hole as the value of the CIEMs themselves.
 
None the less, we will still maintain refit policy if required.
 
The end result is, understand that CIEMs are not for everyone, IEMs are obviously not for every one either. But ultimately, for the main, they do work for a lot of people. This is rather obviuos, as if they did not, there would be no demand for CIEMs or IEMs.
 
 
 
Wizard

In depth explanation much appreciated!
 
I was also thinking of getting a 8A for the girlfriend as a gift. She's158 cm tall and so her ears are rather small. Would her ears be able to accommodate 8 drivers?

 

[FullCircle]

Really I would need her ear impression in the lab to be able to answer that question
 
 
WIzard

 

[Yoga]

Anyone driven the 8.As with the Burson Conductor?

 

[DougofTheAbaci]

Anyone driven the 8.As with the Burson Conductor?

I normally associate the Conductor with larger cans. I've seen it and the Soloist (which is basically just the amp-section of the Conductor) reviewed with HE-500's and LCD-2's.

The best thing I've seen that could possibly drive something of that scale as well as an 8.A is the WA7, which is why I'm considering it.

 

[project86]

Quote:

 
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Violectric stack.  I still need to add the V800, using the V200's builtin DAC for now.  I like having two 1/4" jacks on the front of the V200, but then I'm also paranoid about leaving the volume knob at 12 to 1 or 2 o'clock from a session with the HD800 and plugging in the CIEMs right after 

 
I also wonder if anyone has had any experience with $149 CablePro extension cables, to add another 5 feet of "audiophile-grade" copper cable to your CIEM cable trail.  Yes, it's expensive so I'm wondering if it's, at all, a justifiable add-on?
 
http://www.thecablepro.com/cablepro-freedom-up-occ-headphone-extension-cable.html

 
I've got an early release of the CablePro Freedom extension and it's very nice, but somewhat on the thick and unwieldy side. It seems better suited for home use rather than portable. But mine have a sort of camo-colored jacked which doesn't appear on the version you linked to. So maybe that model is more flexible. I'd email Ted and ask.
 
Quote:

I normally associate the Conductor with larger cans. I've seen it and the Soloist (which is basically just the amp-section of the Conductor) reviewed with HE-500's and LCD-2's.

The best thing I've seen that could possibly drive something of that scale as well as an 8.A is the WA7, which is why I'm considering it.

 
I use the Violectric V200 which can dump high amounts of current/voltage into larger cans, yet has the precision to handle CIEMs with a silent background. The cheaper Lake People G-series models are also very good for both headphones and IEMs. 
 
Most other high-end amps have too high of a noise floor with IEMs. But I haven't tried the WA7 so I don't know about that. I'd have to confirm its output impedance before recommending it though - they only list "headphone impedance: 8-600 ohms" which isn't really clear. 

 

[Yoga]

Thanks guys. I ask as I have a Conductor on it's way to me for the Lcd-2s.

P86 - what dac do you pair the v200 with? On a side note, I noticed you mentioned the Miracles as you're fave IEMs at the time of reviewing. Did that change with the HA 8As?

 

[Thracian]

Is the heir audio website down or is it just me?