The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Oct 27, 2023 at 5:43 PM Post #68,686 of 88,290
What are some of your favorite treble test songs or passages?

The first minute of these has been make or break for many IEMs and headphones for me:



 
Oct 27, 2023 at 5:47 PM Post #68,687 of 88,290
Kann Alpha owner here. This is a documented issue for many of their players. It’s a 2fold problem:

1. A&K have officially stated the bitrate LED only correctly functions 100% of the time when using the (imo garbage ui) stock music player
2. Anything other than the stock player goes through the stock android audio sink. Meaning AM will max out at 24bit 48khz regardless of input
3. You’ll have more luck using the stock Tidal app vs the most recent version, since the stock version is hard-coded to bypass the Android audio sink. Too bad it’s authentication is out of date and rarely works correctly - up to date sideloaded versions also run much quicker

I typically use Apple Music and local files on my Kann Alpha. I’ve managed to skirt around A&Ks extremely limited software (they took the laziest approach possible to prevent “unwanted” apps) but Android is still Android. I plan to test UAPP and its accompanying driver this weekend. Wish A&K support wasn’t dog water on devices costing as much as these do
And i thought that Android is down sampling music over USB output only?

My Tidal app is showing sampling rates of 192Khz, both with iBasso and Cayin DAP.
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 5:49 PM Post #68,688 of 88,290
As said, I absolutely was taking things there with a grain of salt. But that's... Ominous? Guess I'll find out tomorrow. Worst case, campfire has a decent return policy if need be. Hopefully won't be needed unless the sound is somehow... Wrong. Honestly more concerned about the fit.
Don't worry about fit. It's surprisingly comfy, even with my difficult ears and small canals.
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 6:05 PM Post #68,689 of 88,290
What are some of your favorite treble test songs or passages?

The first minute of these has been make or break for many IEMs and headphones for me:





That Superfly song is awesome, I'll have to add that one to my library. I also love using various electronic tracks to test treble.

These aren't really the best tracks for testing treble imo, but they're tracks that I know stupidly well and have heard across so many IEMs over the years with both poor and great treble that I just know how to use them as reference points. If there's major issues with any of these it will stop me from buying an IEM regardless of how good it may be elsewhere.



At 3:40 seconds, I have a mental checklist of things I look for during this passage as far as treble quality goes but not necessarily tuning. It's mostly speed related for this.



2:04 and on, poor extension absolutely ruins the playback of this track and makes it sound really muffled.



Basically this entire song, but I use this track to test more than just treble.
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 6:17 PM Post #68,690 of 88,290
That Superfly song is awesome, I'll have to add that one to my library. I also love using various electronic tracks to test treble.

These aren't really the best tracks for testing treble imo, but they're tracks that I know stupidly well and have heard across so many IEMs over the years with both poor and great treble that I just know how to use them as reference points. If there's major issues with any of these it will stop me from buying an IEM regardless of how good it may be elsewhere.



At 3:40 seconds, I have a mental checklist of things I look for during this passage as far as treble quality goes but not necessarily tuning. It's mostly speed related for this.



2:04 and on, poor extension absolutely ruins the playback of this track and makes it sound really muffled.



Basically this entire song, but I use this track to test more than just treble.

Very useful to know what type of music you listen to. So wildly different from my library lol. I can see the importance of treble in this type music, much more prominent than in mine. I'll try to listen to this with Trifecta, just for fun. :)
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 6:21 PM Post #68,691 of 88,290
Well those are just some tracks to show off treble rather than an indication of my library or my full test track list, it is very broad minus classical or jazz mostly.

This is the first track I played on Trifecta and also why I knew within one minute it would never work for me:



At :30 seconds, the “extension” I could hear sounded very different to what I am used to hearing with this song. If you make it to 2:00 then listen to the airy passage, try it on XE6 afterwards and you’ll see exactly what I mean.
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 6:27 PM Post #68,692 of 88,290
From 🇯🇵 with love - Musashi San knows how to manufacture IEMs from ground up and adds an individual touch to every of his creation. Do the Miroak-2 (with Kalimantan Ebony wood) sound good? Exactly as excellent woodies should do 🙏

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Oct 27, 2023 at 6:35 PM Post #68,693 of 88,290
That Superfly song is awesome, I'll have to add that one to my library. I also love using various electronic tracks to test treble.

These aren't really the best tracks for testing treble imo, but they're tracks that I know stupidly well and have heard across so many IEMs over the years with both poor and great treble that I just know how to use them as reference points. If there's major issues with any of these it will stop me from buying an IEM regardless of how good it may be elsewhere.



Hypnotized is in my library as well! I agree, poorly executed treble has put me off some otherwise great sounding IEMs. Superfly can get pretty painful very quickly with the wrong chain
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 7:58 PM Post #68,694 of 88,290
Happy Friday, Coolergang!

Here is the 2nd half of the cross posted impressions and comparisons of the Scarlet Mini (check out the first part here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...n-first-page-all-welcome.957426/post-17790942)


Packaging and Accessories

Before we dive into the 2nd round of comparisons, let's briefly comment on the quite nice accessories that came with Scarlet:


The sheer redness of the thing lol...

The first batch of Scarlets come with in a clever matching scarlet red pelican style case (FATfreq's own "FATbox"). For the first 300 units the red silver upgrade cable is available for free and afterwards looks like it will be ~$100.


The Hypertweeter deserves silver cable!

In each case (har har) the cosmetic pairing is delightful. While nothing cooler shaking, the silver cable with modular termination is a very nice inclusion and a big upgrade from what they included with their IEMs last year.

On with the show!


Red vs. Blue: Scarlet and the Maestros (part 2)

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Mini vs. Tribrids

It’s time for part 2 of my comparison gamut between the new Scarlet Mini and the Maestro series. For part 1, where I compared Scarlet Mini directly to Maestro Mini, please see the previous post at https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...n-first-page-all-welcome.957426/post-17790942 - this time around we’ll be comparing the Scarlet Mini to the two top end Tribrid IEMs: the Maestro SE (MSE) and Grand Maestro (GM).

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(left to right: FATfreq Maestro Mini, Scarlet Mini, Maestro SE, Grand Maestro CIEM)

Unfair? Absolutely, but everybody loves a good story of David vs. Goliath, and more importantly it's good to understand how the addition of Scarlet affects the value prospect of the higher end models from FATfreq. Furthermore, the Scarlet features a new “Hypertweeter” balanced armature driver that is pegged to compete with electret (EST) drivers in the high frequencies which is interesting to qualify through listening.


Technical

My GM and MSE are pushing a year old now at the time of this post. My GM in particular is something of a prototype, they had not yet finalized the standard artwork for instance (so rather than FATfreq on the R piece, it should have the 16th note Semiquaver). In any case, newer MSEs and GMs have similar recessed 2 pin port to the Scarlet as was discussed previously. Instead, we’ll focus on the substantial fit differences and how this affects the product strategy.

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And the “mini” name starts to make more sense…

The MSE and GM are both 12 driver Tribrids, featuring configurations of 1 Dynamic Driver for bass, 7 Balanced Armature for mids and 4 Electret EST drivers for highs. As you can see, compared to the 3 driver hybrid configuration in the pair of Minis, this takes a TON of space to fit. The body size on the MSE and GM are substantially larger, and I have found the Uni MSE to be a relatively hard IEM to fit.

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MSE (left) and Scarlet (right)

This is a nice illustration of the fundamental trade off at play in driver configuration. A smaller footprint allows for housing that is compact enough to get the drivers themselves deeply inserted into the ear, whereas the Tribrids need an acoustic feed (tubes etc) to route the sound into your canal. The “bang for your buck” per driver is dominated by proximity to the ear drum, so the Mini’s 3 drivers hit far harder than the corresponding trio would back in the larger housing. We’ll talk more about the sonic implications in the Sound Off up next.

Of course, a time tested strategy for dealing with larger driver configurations and the ensuing volume is to opt for a Custom IEM (CIEM) shell. FATfreq began as a custom shop, and retain a strong tradition of CIEM design and manufacturing.

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Scarlet Mini (left) and Grand Maestro CIEM (right)

This removes the fit variable, and makes for the ideal comparison vs. the deeply inserted drivers of the mini.

Sensitivity wise, both Tribrids require SUBSTANTIALLY more power than the Minis (like 10+ dB, basically a higher gain mode). I quite like hard to drive IEMs as it gives lots of flexibility for amplification. Fortunately the Minis are not exceptionally sensitive and are not prone to over saturation (background hissing) on any of my amps or DAP.


Sound Off

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The MSE exemplifies the Maestro ultra tucked sub bass shelf plus reference tuning, that FATfreq have become famous for. In its upper mids and lower treble, it features a relatively textbook diffused field tuning, sounding a bit boring and reference like - until there’s content sub 150 Hz. Unlike the Maestro Mini, there’s no niggling minor timbral offset and it produces a clean, even slightly lean overall profile.

This starkly contrasts the mids/lower treble on the Scarlet that as previously mentioned are subdued to minimize the tuning impact and maximize apparent bass.

In combination with the much higher upper bass of the Scarlet, this means that the MSE sounds very cool and lean in comparison. Folks that found MSE slightly boring would do well to give the brand another chance with Scarlet.

Sub bass can get tricky to qualify at these high amplitude levels. But the Scarlet has notably more sub impact and presence than the MSE, which used to be my sub bass high water mark. It’s not something that requires focus or extensive comparison to qualify like the GM vs. MSE either… it’s quite immediately evident that Scarlet is the new Bass king.

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Up high, true to their marketing FATfreq’s new Hypertweeter is definitely passing on detail and air comparably to the EST’s in the MSE. Unfortunately, because of the noted subdued mids, the extra treble energy seems a bit off for me on the Scarlet… with the ear gain profile of the MSE it makes sense and is part of a pleasant complete spectrum, but with Scarlet it kind of pops out of nowhere.

I can appreciate the challenge FATfreq faced here, bringing out details like this while sharing the stage with elephantine levels of bass is no easy task I’d imagine. Still, there’s no denying that the MSE’s EST drivers sound natural and impressive whereas the Hypertweeter although capable feels a bit gimmicky in the context of the Scarlet’s tuning.

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The GM takes the tribrid configuration present in the MSE and adds a pressure equalization and tuning module that FATfreq call NOAH, as well as a tuning switch that allows you to deactivate the bass shelf in what they call "vocal boost" mode. To simplify comparison, I will be referencing the GM’s black, non vocal mode, which is the most similar to the MSE and Scarlet. The flexibility with the Blue (and tbd) NOAH modules and switch is a huge value prospect for the GM, but is outside the scope of this discussion.

Here, however, is where things got truly unfair… the equalized pressure is absolutely transformative in the quality of bass produced. I’ll just directly quote my notes here: “Unfair. Bass is less voluminous but eminently more textured. With equalized pressure, a transient process is revealed. Detail has delineation and edginess without sharpness.”

After A/B between GM and Scarlet, I absentmindedly kept the GM in ear afterwards and just kept listening for the entire album. Such a wonderful IEM.

Particularly with the SPL produced for the level of Subbass present in MSE and even more so Scarlet, having pressure equalization like on the GM with Black filter removes fatigue and allows our ears to extract more detail than I thought was possible at <50 Hz.

WIth the semi open cleanliness generally, the ESTs in the GM also particularly shine. They are more emphasized than on the MSE but with the open clarity I generally don’t find it objectionable. It lets them get away pushing a lot more detail than I would generally like in traditional unvented designs.


End of Line?

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It’s truly impressive what the team at FATfreq have pulled off with Scarlet. It has a focus of purpose that allows it to achieve new heights in bass, not just for IEMs but for home audio period. This directivity comes at the cost of flexibility… certainly more so than their existing Maestro peers.

Compared to FATfreq’s existing TOTL models, the Scarlet doesn’t disrupt things too much, rather provides a welcome capable specialist to the selection. While the absolute sub bass king title of the MSE is now Red’s to own, the MSE’s textbook overall execution is still outstanding and well worth the cost of entry (both dollar and fit)! The GM’s equalized pressure venting is surprisingly effective for bass oriented tunings. The extra comfort and detail it brings make the concession to the bass level on the Scarlet remain palatable.

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The right driver in the wrong place…

The entire experience has left me dreaming of a vented “Scarlet turbo”, that combines the proximal driver benefits of the mini with the incredible textural delivery of the GM's venting. The open clarity might also shed a more flattering light on the hyper tweeter too in the process. Even as one reaches new summits of experience in this hobby, it is a good thing to keep dreaming :)


Bonus Round: Bass for the Ages



Does the Scarlet bass transcend topology?

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In my spare time, when not greedily stuffing my ears with as many IEMs as possible, I maintain a collection of Fostex Biodyna TOTL headphones (TH900m2 Red, TH900m2 Pearl White, TH909, TrX Ebony). These models are Fostex’ own premium take on the evergreen Biodyna OEM models (EMu, Denon D2000/5000/7000 etc). In addition to the biocellulose driver’s exceptional low distortion (same tech that was in the legendary Sony MDR-R10), they are also notorious for their strong bass performance. The TH900 Red in particular remains a Bass head’s staple for over ear.

I was curious how the Reds would compare head to head, for Science 🙂

To cut to the chase, yes the Scarlet has more bass than the TH900. It’s not close. But it’s also not as far off as one would think looking at the frequency responses. But if you convinced a “normie” in your life to try both, they wouldn’t hesitate to tell you the Scarlet has more bass, even if they struggled to tell you exactly why.

The sensation of bass with IEMs is fundamentally different to on-ear. The haptics of over ear produces a lot of intrinsic bone conduction. This occurrs from the headphone’s mechanical surface touching your skin (pads and clamp), while also being coupled to the driver. You can think of this as a huge version of FIR’s Kinetic Bass, that envelopes your whole ear. The concept of “slam” makes more sense in this context. The driver and haptic response are literally barraging the side of your head with Bass energy.

For IEMs, like Scarlet, the internal nature of the source is very evident. It feels like there is a sub-woofer in my ear canal and the bass energy is trying to explode outward. There’s much less area for natural BCD around the canal. Factor in the higher acoustic impedance IEMs face in low frequencies, and a picture where you need to add 5-10 dB of bass boost to an IEM for the same apparent bass level starts to make sense.

So no, I’m not listing my Fostex in the classifieds any time soon, but YES the Scarlet Mini produces bass at a much higher level - even notable beyond the dramatic perceptual differences discussed.
Excellent Review @Bret Halford! Would you say this could be a great EDC and something that may play nice with the iFi Go Pods?
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 8:07 PM Post #68,695 of 88,290
You can add the Code 23 cable on the Empyreans to completely make it a Campfire Trifecta sound signature on a headphone :)

😮 I should re-visit the Code 23 with my Atrium. I bet that would be a super fun sound!

So I don't know how, but I've somehow ended up with more TOTL cables than IEMs. :stuck_out_tongue:



Orphy remains my all-time favourite cable for its unmatched technical performance and superb mids. Although the Shirogane has firmly established itself as my #2. It retains a lot of the characteristics of the Yatono 8w but with better ergonomics, more air (but not brightness) in the treble, less mid-bass (but great sub-bass) and even better soundstage & separation. It's too bright with the Ragnar, and too bass-heavy with the Xe6, but is super well suited for the Rn6 and Ronin.

I've never heard the Orphy. :slight_frown: If anybody coming to CanJam Dallas has one, I'd love to audition it if it's not too much trouble?

I also find it interesting how synergistic some pairings are. The Xe6/OTL, Ragnar/Orphy, Shirogane/Rn6 really stand out for me as cables/IEMs that work fantastically well together.

My absolutely favorite cable at the moment is EA's Centurion, which pairs incredibly well with Jomo's Alpha Ti. This is probably the closest I've ever come to a traditional hi-fi signature with IEMs: fantastic extension at both ends while being tonally-balanced in between; wonderfully natural dynamics with visceral (but not sharp) transients, where every note has body and gravitas; and it's such a clean presentation overall - eschewing any hint of haziness or congestion - with all of the aforementioned sonic goodness rising out of an inky blackness. Yeah, I'm definitely having a pretty good time with this right now. :relaxed:
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 9:05 PM Post #68,696 of 88,290
What are some of your favorite treble test songs or passages?

The first minute of these has been make or break for many IEMs and headphones for me:




Thanks for the suggested tracks, however, I do think those last few min will break most IEMs/Headphones, maybe it is not the problem of IEMs or headphones :).
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 9:45 PM Post #68,697 of 88,290
Very interesting what you write. Does this mean that app sideloading never yields the best possible audio quality? So does this also apply to Apple Music and Qobuz?
That’s my understanding yeah. So far testing Foobar, YouTube Music, and Apple Music all result in being piped through the default Android audio stack. This is expected, but stinks
 
Oct 27, 2023 at 9:58 PM Post #68,698 of 88,290
And i thought that Android is down sampling music over USB output only?

My Tidal app is showing sampling rates of 192Khz, both with iBasso and Cayin DAP.
Stock android resamples everything to 24bit 48khz, regardless of source. Tidal will show the source bitrate on most devices but not the output bitrate. You can test this by hooking up a USB DAC to your Android device and checking the bitrate it’s receiving (if it has that feature).

A&K uses (used to rather because it’s dead) a home built Tidal app that bypasses the Android audio sink. The sideloaded Tidal app does not do this. iBasso and Cayin might have their own implementation but I am unfamiliar - as for A&K, it’s stock Android audio stack outside of the stock local file player and the built in (again, now useless) Tidal app
 
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Oct 27, 2023 at 10:28 PM Post #68,699 of 88,290
Thanks for the suggested tracks, however, I do think those last few min will break most IEMs/Headphones, maybe it is not the problem of IEMs or headphones :).
It's funny you say that because there have been times where I've wondered if the song or the IEM were the problem, but after all these years the songs remain on my playlists while the offending IEMs are long gone 😅😂
 

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