The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.

Jul 7, 2021 at 4:06 PM Post #1,561 of 107,316
Totally different situation - plus you have your eyes and whole body to perceive the sound and other stimulii at a live event.

When you are listening to a recording it is now a single source, and when you have multiple dsrivers, you have a group of filters, that send specific frequency ranges to different drivers, - and so you have multiplr sources reproducing the same instrument, but different parts of it's bandwith....

Weird example, but imagine if you were listening to a podcast or one of those 'books on tape' and a male voice pronounced the consonants and a female voice pronounced the vowels.... The magic of a single driver isn't magic, it's simply a single driver producing a coherent sound. The shell and driver have to be tuned to keep the driver in its happy place, and not get into trouble, but the alternative is to have a division of labor, where different sounding drivers try to stitch Humpty Dumpty back together....

I get that intuitively with a single source like a voice or guitar. But does that also apply to a complete band? Does a single driver sound more coherent playing a recording of multiple instruments in multiple places recorded by multiple microphones? If yes, why?
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 4:30 PM Post #1,562 of 107,316
I get that intuitively with a single source like a voice or guitar. But does that also apply to a complete band? Does a single driver sound more coherent playing a recording of multiple instruments in multiple places recorded by multiple microphones? If yes, why?
It's not the right comparison - it is more complicated than simply tallying up number of sources.... When a person sings, all of their vocal sound comes out of their mouth. The guitar sounds come out of the guitar - none of the guitar sounds come out of the singer's mouth (unless it's Peter Frampton lol) or vioce versa. Each 'source' is complete and self-contained.

A single driver producves all of the sound - whatever colorations it imparts, it does so equally to all frequencies, likewise for the way it launches the wave.

Multiple drivers have crossovers (almost always), which are bandwith limitign filters, but that also introduce time/phase/impulse issues, and each driver in a multi-way sounds different- not just in terms of frequency range, but also in terms of colorations... So, while it's not impossible to get multi-driver setups to sound cohrent, it's pretty difficult, and usually you sacrifice a bit of coherence to get more detail/resolution, as you are using specialists for each frequency range.

I think your analogy would be more apt if the recording was divided into 3, bass, mids and treble, and they were played back simultaneously (whether a recording of a soloist or a large ensemble).

My 2 cents worth, in any case.....
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 5:55 PM Post #1,563 of 107,316
It's not the right comparison - it is more complicated than simply tallying up number of sources.... When a person sings, all of their vocal sound comes out of their mouth. The guitar sounds come out of the guitar - none of the guitar sounds come out of the singer's mouth (unless it's Peter Frampton lol) or vioce versa. Each 'source' is complete and self-contained.

A single driver producves all of the sound - whatever colorations it imparts, it does so equally to all frequencies, likewise for the way it launches the wave.

Multiple drivers have crossovers (almost always), which are bandwith limitign filters, but that also introduce time/phase/impulse issues, and each driver in a multi-way sounds different- not just in terms of frequency range, but also in terms of colorations... So, while it's not impossible to get multi-driver setups to sound cohrent, it's pretty difficult, and usually you sacrifice a bit of coherence to get more detail/resolution, as you are using specialists for each frequency range.

I think your analogy would be more apt if the recording was divided into 3, bass, mids and treble, and they were played back simultaneously (whether a recording of a soloist or a large ensemble).

My 2 cents worth, in any case.....
I feel like it'll also depend on your personal sensitivities and what triggers your perception of incoherence or time/phase misalignment. For me, personally, I've always been less privy to differences between driver types - or different BA models in a multi-driver set-up, as in your example - compared to incoherences in frequency response or tonal balance. For example, take a single DD with more presence at 5kHz than 1-2kHz. When I listen to a snare drum, that driver would give me a bright, forward attack, then the body of the drum an inch or two behind. Compare that to a BA handling 5kHz and another handling 1-2kHz, but they're levelled equally (per my ears) and with proper phase correction; minimal phase cancellation, if any. I'd most likely find the latter more "coherent" than the former, even if the former may have a slight edge in timing, uniformity in texture, etc. But, that's simply because of what my ears and brain happen to be alarmed by, whether by nature or nurture. Judging from your posts, you may feel differently.

I do feel that there can be a certain vividness and glow to dynamic drivers, though. There's a nostalgia to it that's intrinsically linked to the humble, home-grown, 2-channel set-up, car stereos, church PA systems, etc. Even the good ole' kick drum is basically the world's first subwoofer. :D I think that affinity that comes with dynamic drivers just comes from the fact that we've long grown up with it. Whereas, BA is almost the new kid on the block like e-stats are now. Although the degree to which we pick up on the differences between the two - in the mids, the highs and the intangibles (like time, texture, etc.) - will differ from one person to the next, that subconscious attraction a lot of us have towards the DD sound is something that's undeniable, I think.
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 6:06 PM Post #1,564 of 107,316
I do feel that there can be a certain vividness and glow to dynamic drivers, though. There's a nostalgia to it that's intrinsically linked to the humble, home-grown, 2-channel set-up, car stereos, church PA systems, etc. Even the good ole' kick drum is basically the world's first subwoofer. :D I think that affinity that comes with dynamic drivers just comes from the fact that we've long grown up with it. Whereas, BA is almost the new kid on the block like e-stats are now. Although the degree to which we pick up on the differences between the two - in the mids, the highs and the intangibles (like time, texture, etc.) - will differ from one person to the next, that subconscious attraction a lot of us have towards the DD sound is something that's undeniable, I think.
There also seems to be a high percentage of people who play certain instruments and don’t find that said instrument sounds quite correct unless it’s being reproduced by a DD. For me, it’s acoustic guitars.
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 8:16 PM Post #1,565 of 107,316
I feel like it'll also depend on your personal sensitivities and what triggers your perception of incoherence or time/phase misalignment. For me, personally, I've always been less privy to differences between driver types - or different BA models in a multi-driver set-up, as in your example - compared to incoherences in frequency response or tonal balance. For example, take a single DD with more presence at 5kHz than 1-2kHz. When I listen to a snare drum, that driver would give me a bright, forward attack, then the body of the drum an inch or two behind. Compare that to a BA handling 5kHz and another handling 1-2kHz, but they're levelled equally (per my ears) and with proper phase correction; minimal phase cancellation, if any. I'd most likely find the latter more "coherent" than the former, even if the former may have a slight edge in timing, uniformity in texture, etc. But, that's simply because of what my ears and brain happen to be alarmed by, whether by nature or nurture. Judging from your posts, you may feel differently.

I do feel that there can be a certain vividness and glow to dynamic drivers, though. There's a nostalgia to it that's intrinsically linked to the humble, home-grown, 2-channel set-up, car stereos, church PA systems, etc. Even the good ole' kick drum is basically the world's first subwoofer. :D I think that affinity that comes with dynamic drivers just comes from the fact that we've long grown up with it. Whereas, BA is almost the new kid on the block like e-stats are now. Although the degree to which we pick up on the differences between the two - in the mids, the highs and the intangibles (like time, texture, etc.) - will differ from one person to the next, that subconscious attraction a lot of us have towards the DD sound is something that's undeniable, I think.
My comments on single dirver vs multi did not only apply to DD vs BA as the single driver. For me, frequency response differences also occur depending on where you sit at the acoustic concert, and I might hear your snare drum example as a smaller drum with a tighter head (or head or shell made from different material - the time/phase stuff would still be right, and it would still sound like a snare drum, rather than a tom, or a flute or a violin...... (I think-that's my conjecture in any case).

I'm pretty sensitive to time/phase stuff, for whatever reason, so it might be idiosyuncratic/subjective in that sense. Excellent conversation, btw. It's nice to be able to politely disagree with each other, and still be 'friends'....
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 8:23 PM Post #1,566 of 107,316
There also seems to be a high percentage of people who play certain instruments and don’t find that said instrument sounds quite correct unless it’s being reproduced by a DD. For me, it’s acoustic guitars.
I wonder how much of that comes from the fact that speakers are never BA-based, but are almost always DD, whteher cones, domes, etc... and only even some speakers are planar, whether magnetic or electrostatic. I suppose it's like familiar cooking smells - if you've never smelled a specific scent, it ain't familiar!

I tend to agree with you, but have noticed that sometimes drums sound awesome on DDs, while cymbals and metal percussion can sound great on BAs, which are-coinicidentaly (or not) vibrating metal reeds.....
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 8:25 PM Post #1,567 of 107,316
I wonder how much of that comes from the fact that speakers are never BA-based, but are almost always DD, whteher cones, domes, etc... and only even some speakers are planar, whether magnetic or electrostatic. I suppose it's like familiar cooking smells - if you've never smelled a specific scent, it ain't familiar!

I tend to agree with you, but have noticed that sometimes drums sound awesome on DDs, while cymbals and metal percussion can sound great on BAs, which are-coinicidentaly (or not) vibrating metal reeds.....
Very fair point.
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 8:25 PM Post #1,568 of 107,316
I wonder how much of that comes from the fact that speakers are never BA-based, but are almost always DD, whteher cones, domes, etc... and only even some speakers are planar, whether magnetic or electrostatic. I suppose it's like familiar cooking smells - if you've never smelled a specific scent, it ain't familiar!

I tend to agree with you, but have noticed that sometimes drums sound awesome on DDs, while cymbals and metal percussion can sound great on BAs, which are-coinicidentaly (or not) vibrating metal reeds.....

maybe the better speaker comparison is multi-way vs single driver full range/subwoofer assisted wide band drivers :)
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 10:24 PM Post #1,569 of 107,316
Gonna try the percivali. I blame this thread
 
Jul 7, 2021 at 10:36 PM Post #1,570 of 107,316
Gonna try the percivali. I blame this thread

I have a feeling I'll have ordered a Reborn before I go to bed tonight. Maybe we can do a loaner trade :D
 
Jul 8, 2021 at 1:44 AM Post #1,572 of 107,316
Hi @Rockwell75 san

Greeting from Japan.
I`m new to IEM journey and appreciate to hear your experience & advise if you don`t mind.

I just got used Japan limited QDC 10SE which regarded as switchless ANOLE VX as my first ever IEM (10+ hours listening) this week.
Reason I chose is although mixed opinion overall, it`s generally accepted as highly technical/reference sound by experts and audiophiles reviews.
To be honest, I don`t exactly know what are considered highly technical sound so I trust what I heard from this IEM as correct lol. :)

Also, based on comments that there is no IEM rule it all, but more on preference.
My question is, if I divide it by two categories
(1) Reference, technical, analytical
(2) Fun, engaging, musicality
※ Just throwing off words, but hope the idea get across. 
QDC 10SE is my (1), and now looking at Unique Melody MEST as my (2).

Do you think these will complement each other rather than clash?
Or do you have other suggestion sub $1500 for (2), since I aware your love for CFA.

I plan to use QDC 10SE as my base IEM ( and probably the only (1)) to compare with other IEM.
as reference, I mainly listen to Brit Rock (90s and 00s) and Vocal focus music.
 
Jul 8, 2021 at 2:43 AM Post #1,573 of 107,316
My comments on single dirver vs multi did not only apply to DD vs BA as the single driver. For me, frequency response differences also occur depending on where you sit at the acoustic concert, and I might hear your snare drum example as a smaller drum with a tighter head (or head or shell made from different material - the time/phase stuff would still be right, and it would still sound like a snare drum, rather than a tom, or a flute or a violin...... (I think-that's my conjecture in any case).

I'm pretty sensitive to time/phase stuff, for whatever reason, so it might be idiosyuncratic/subjective in that sense. Excellent conversation, btw. It's nice to be able to politely disagree with each other, and still be 'friends'....
I may be misunderstanding your first line here, but the comparison I made wasn't a single DD vs. a single BA. It was a single DD vs. a pair of BA's; one BA handling 1-2kHz, and another handling 5kHz. What I was trying to say was, if the BA pair had a more linear frequency response than the DD, I'd easily take the pair, even if the single DD had better timing or phase. I think it's also telling that I'm able to easily describe what certain frequency aberrations would do to instruments, while quirks in time/phase are often things I'd describe more vaguely; more felt and esoteric. Don't get me wrong, though: I think they absolutely make a difference. But, they're just shy of tone in what I feel determines my perception of an IEM's correctness.

The snare drum was just one example in the theoretical soundscape I was illustrating. If it's only the snare drum sounding that way among all the instruments in the mix, it'd obviously be a product of the drum or the recording. It was just my way of illustrating what that frequency colouration would do. I could've said the exact same using vocals or guitars as the example. Or, I could've used an analogy like a DD with more low-mids than high-mids, for example. That would result in a singer getting quieter as they go up their vocal range, which can easily come off as unnatural. I'm just saying that even if the delivery system for that sound was a single DD with perfect time, perfect phase, etc., it'd still come off less natural or coherent to me than a set of drivers producing that sound with less perfect time, less perfect phase, but with perfect levelling between its frequencies.

And, the thing about seating would be a factor if we were comparing DDs and BAs in a live concert environment, but we're talking about IEMs that can only be seated one way here (notwithstanding slight variations for universals).

In short, something with an even tone, less-perfect time and less-perfect phase would come off more coherent to me than the opposite, but that doesn't mean I consider time and phase unimportant. It just isn't at the top of the totem pole for me, because of what inherently triggers my ears and brain. I definitely agree, though, that it's a great conversation to have. Even if an opinion isn't mine to share, it's always brilliant to consider, especially when I'll then have to write reviews that must cater to different people with different ears.
 
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Jul 8, 2021 at 2:46 AM Post #1,574 of 107,316
There also seems to be a high percentage of people who play certain instruments and don’t find that said instrument sounds quite correct unless it’s being reproduced by a DD. For me, it’s acoustic guitars.
I wonder how much of that comes from the fact that speakers are never BA-based, but are almost always DD, whteher cones, domes, etc... and only even some speakers are planar, whether magnetic or electrostatic. I suppose it's like familiar cooking smells - if you've never smelled a specific scent, it ain't familiar!

I tend to agree with you, but have noticed that sometimes drums sound awesome on DDs, while cymbals and metal percussion can sound great on BAs, which are-coinicidentaly (or not) vibrating metal reeds.....
The kick drum is an instrument that objectively sounds better on a DD for me. Only the best of BAs can match the... less-capable of DDs, but a stellar DD takes the cake every time. The kick drum is essentially a giant DD after all. :D
 
Jul 8, 2021 at 9:25 AM Post #1,575 of 107,316
I plan to use QDC 10SE as my base IEM...I mainly listen to Brit Rock (90s and 00s) and Vocal focus music.

The VX is a pretty great IEM and, while I don't generally go for super technical/referency IEMs the Anole VX is probably the best IEM I've ever heard along those lines.

That said if you're looking for a more musical & engaging IEM, particularly if your focus is on vocals, I think there are better options than the MEST because the mids on the MEST aren't really the best (haha).

Some choices for IEMs that provide a contrast to VX:

1) Oriolus Isabellae -->. Sounds great with everything, highly engaging, vocals are pristine...it doesn't really have big bass though if that's a priority.
2) CFA Dorado 2020 --> My personal choice for a "bassy & fun" IEM. Deceptively technical, highly engaging, my favorite bass out there, and it sounds incredible with rock music. Possibly not the best choice if female vocals & Asian pop are things are a big priority for you.
3) VE Elysium/VE8 --> This one is a lot more expensive than the first two but it's one of the best vocal/engaging IEMs out there-- these aren't "musical" IEMs in the normal sense but they're highly engaging & sound great with everything.
4) Sony IER Z1R --> If you listen to a lot of female vocals this should be near the top of your list to consider...but if you listen to a lot of Amercian rhythm & blues based rock, male vocals or other music that commands a lot of lower mid/mid bass presence then it might not be the best option.
5) EE LX -->. Lots of high quality bass-- too much to serve as an "all rounder IEM" for me...but as a second more guilty pleasure "musical" IEM it's one of the best.
 

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