The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
May 7, 2023 at 5:46 AM Post #58,186 of 91,345
Yeah, It’s definitely disappointing and not a good look on FatFreq in my opinion. They seem to be undermining their dealer (in this case MusicTeck but I can’t comment on any others) by encouraging customers to buy through them directly. I also enquired with FatFreq about purchasing the gold upgrade cable for Grand Maestro which normally costs SGD $450, but they said because I’m buying my GM through MusicTeck, I have to pay SGD $830 for the cable. I understand they want to incentivise people to buy from them direct but I think that’s an excessive price difference.

I emailed FatFreq earlier today asking them why their website shows GM has 4 bass tuning options but is not available out of the box, and they’ve now updated their website with this disclaimer:

IMG_6115.jpeg
That’s quite deliberate on FatFreq part. Kinda unacceptable for such an expensive product, when 64 audio can offer a full set of APEX for universal IEMs.
 
May 7, 2023 at 6:26 AM Post #58,187 of 91,345
Practice : I took the idea from MaggotBrain. Thanks to him.
IMG_2531.jpeg


For a big step towards the stars...
 
May 7, 2023 at 10:18 AM Post #58,188 of 91,345
That’s quite deliberate on FatFreq part. Kinda unacceptable for such an expensive product, when 64 audio can offer a full set of APEX for universal IEMs.
Well said. That really puts things into perspective.
 
May 7, 2023 at 10:20 AM Post #58,189 of 91,345
That’s quite deliberate on FatFreq part. Kinda unacceptable for such an expensive product, when 64 audio can offer a full set of APEX for universal IEMs.
Well only kinda. New M12 only comes with U4s for now, you can't even buy them seperately.

64 Audio also has some tricks up their sleeves. Still not as bad as FF.
 
May 7, 2023 at 10:32 AM Post #58,190 of 91,345
It's worth noting that this seems to only be the case if you bought your GM through Musictek. I bought my GM direct from FATfreq and they shipped me the blue for free a few weeks ago...

Give them a bit of time to respond (@Sebastien Chiu) , they are small and swamped but I doubt there is any malice or exploitative desire here. Hopefully they will make things right for the early adopters through Musictek too!
 
May 7, 2023 at 10:40 AM Post #58,191 of 91,345
It's worth noting that this seems to only be the case if you bought your GM through Musictek. I bought my GM direct from FATfreq and they shipped me the blue for free a few weeks ago...

Give them a bit of time to respond (@Sebastien Chiu) , they are small and swamped but I doubt there is any malice or exploitative desire here. Hopefully they will make things right for the early adopters through Musictek too!

Too late, the angry mob has been mobilised 😂

IMG_3958.jpeg
 
May 7, 2023 at 10:45 AM Post #58,192 of 91,345
It's worth noting that this seems to only be the case if you bought your GM through Musictek. I bought my GM direct from FATfreq and they shipped me the blue for free a few weeks ago...

Give them a bit of time to respond (@Sebastien Chiu) , they are small and swamped but I doubt there is any malice or exploitative desire here. Hopefully they will make things right for the early adopters through Musictek too!

A few people pinged me about this in private with their thoughts, and I'm a bit confused because it seems like FatFreq is trying to push their customers to buy directly from them instead of their international retailers? Kind of defeats the purpose of having official retailers/distributors. Maybe @Sebastien Chiu can chime in to clarify it? Because I actually learned about FatFreq from Musicteck and even borrowed it from them after the CanJam for a few days when I was working on my show report.
 
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May 7, 2023 at 10:51 AM Post #58,193 of 91,345
A few people pinged me about this in private with their thoughts, and I'm a bit confused because it seems like FatFreq is trying to push their customers to buy directly from them instead of their international retailers? Kind of defeats the purpose of having official retailers/distributors. Maybe @Sebastien Chiu can chime in to clarify it? Because I actually learned about FatFreq from Musicteck when attended CanJam NYC and even borrowed it from them for a few days when I was working on my CanJam report.
I don't think there is any intent to push people away from Musictek - that would be a stupid move!

I suspect that being their first international product launch they didn't coordinate the rollout with their distributors well enough... there was similar confusion when a vendor in the UK started telling people the Mini Mk2 (now Scarlett) was only available for sale if you first bought the OG mini (lol), which was just total nonsense.
 
May 7, 2023 at 11:04 AM Post #58,194 of 91,345
FatFreq Grand Maestro Impressions



FatFreq are a relatively new IEM manufacturer from Singapore that have garnered much hype in recent months. I personally became aware of the brand from reading impressions of last year's CanJam SoCal. Their IEM products are offered in four distinct categories:
  • Musician = Designed for stage performers
  • Reference = Designed for studio users
  • Signature = Appears to be their higher end professional IEMs for both stage and studio, however FatFreq have not stated this explicitly afaik.
  • Maestro = Designed for audiophiles.

As the name suggests, Grand Maestro is FatFreq’s latest product in the Maestro series, superseding Maestro SE as their flagship and most expensive IEM in the line-up coming in at SGD $3,599.

I purchased a Maestro SE (MSE) in January of this year, and I have to say, its tuning coupled with its solid technicalities and relatively low price (for TOTL IEM standards) has made it one of the best IEM purchases I have made since being in this portable audio hobby. As a lover of electronic music, MSE is the closest thing I’ve heard to a live concert/festival/rave presentation in an IEM. Its tuning is comprised of a gigantic sub bass elevation that gives bass notes the ability to be literally felt in my core, which in and of itself isn’t all that ground-breaking given how many bass boosted IEMs are in the market these days, however, what makes MSE special is how it manages to present this amount of sub bass while maintaining a fast and punchy mid bass response, clean mids free of bleed, and proper treble extension without sounding incoherent or overly unnatural (relatively speaking).

Given my extremely positive experience with MSE, it felt only natural to want to try their newest flagship offering and see if FatFreq can take my listening experience one step further.

Grand Maestro (I’ll refer to as GM from this point) has the exact same driver configuration as MSE. 1 DD for lows, 7 BA’s for mids, and 4 ESTs for treble. Outside of the fundamental tuning differences between MSE and GM which I’ll expand on later, GM offers two quality of life features over MSE; a tuning switch designed to enhance/reduce vocals, and a pressure relief module system FatFreq have named “NOAH” that’s similar to 64 audio’s APEX module system which can also be used to further tune the sound to your liking.


Unboxing, Accessories, Design and Build Quality



Normally I don’t care too much about unboxings, but I feel it necessary to mention it here because I believe this is probably the most controversial part of the GM experience and something FatFreq have the most room for improvement.


When I received my GM from @MusicTeck (thanks again Andrew!) and opened the mailing box, I was surprised to simply find a leather case, a box of Azla Max tips, and literally zero packaging. I’m in two minds about how I feel about this. On the one hand, I think it’s great to not have to store yet another unnecessary packaging box and I can certainly see the benefit to this from a sustainability standpoint as well as being cheaper to ship when I do eventually sell these IEMs. But on the other hand, this is an expensive product, and it would’ve been nice to at least have some sort of packaging to open to make me feel like I’m getting my money’s worth, as well as somewhere to store the extra accessories instead of keeping them with the IEMs in the leather case.

The other glaring omission is the lack of any extra swappable tuning modules. I reached out to MusicTeck to confirm whether it was just a case of the modules being missed from my unit, but FatFreq confirmed that the additional modules have to be purchased separately for SGD $130 and do not come included in the box if you buy a unit from MusicTeck. To me this seems like a massive miss on FatFreq’s part, especially because they advertise GM as having 4 tuneable bass settings which is simply not true out of the box.

I’m unsure of the material specs and/or geometry of the included cable but it appears to be some sort of copper/silver hybrid in a 2-wire twisted braid. It feels comfortable and pliable, with minimal microphonics. I like the interchangeable 2.5mm/3.3mm/4.4mm jack and the hardware looks a lot nicer than the MSE upgrade cable.

The high quality Azla Max tips as well as the stock silicone tips are also a nice inclusion.

MSE is one of the larger universal IEM’s I’ve used, and GM follows in its footsteps, however, there appears to be some minor ergonomic differences which make a substantial improvement to comfort in real world use, at least for my ears.

The stock faceplate design is absolutely gorgeous IMHO. No complaints at all.

Sound Impressions – Tuning switch down

All impressions were with my Sony WM1ZM2 DAP, stock cable and SpinFit CP155 tips. I'll include some impressions of DAP, cable and tip rolling once I've done further testing.

I’d categorise this as a fairly strong U shape tuning with boosted sub bass and upper treble with a midrange that leans slightly towards the upper mids, giving vocals and instruments excellent clarity and resolution with a clean characteristic.

Bass

Coming from MSE as my benchmark of what FatFreq are able to produce when it comes to bass, my expectations were high for GM, and I think it absolutely delivers. The sub bass isn’t as elevated as MSE’s, giving midbass a little more prominence, however it most certainly still leans towards sub bass overall. The mid bass, while slightly more elevated than MSE’s, is still remarkably fast, tight and punchy. Personally, I prefer GM’s bass tuning to MSE’s because to my ears it sounds more “complete” for lack of a better term. There were times when I listened to MSE and felt the sub bass is almost too much and lacking some control by not having enough mid bass to even it out. I don’t get that feeling at all with GM.

Mids

There’s no going around the fact that GM’s lower midrange is recessed in this tuning configuration. That’s not to say that the mid notes are overly thin or limp, however. Whilst they most certainly lean to the thinner side of the spectrum, the tonal balance between lower and upper mids is still there and I’m not left with a feeling of something missing, which is more than I can say about MSE’s midrange. That said, if you mostly listen to music that requires more body and thickness through the midrange then I’d probably suggest looking elsewhere.

Treble

This is where things diverge the most from MSE. GM’s treble has a noticeably higher level of emphasis from the mid and upper treble regions, making the whole presentation sound a lot more energetic and exciting. The quality of treble is nothing short of excellent, with immense clarity, air and sparkle that is smooth and fatigue free. If you’re familiar with Elysian Acoustic Labs IEMs like Annihilator or X, you’ll feel right at home with GM’s treble. Camelphat’s “Breathe (Dark Matter Edit)” is my usual upper treble test track and the sheer amount detail coming through GM on this track is simply incredible. GM will now sit on top or at least equal to the best of the best IEM’s I’ve heard for treble.

That said, I doubt this type of treble tuning would appeal to everyone, especially those that are sensitive to upper treble. The elevated treble combined with the recessed midrange could potentially sound unnaturally thin and lacking texture for listeners of more instrumental or vocal-centric music so as usual, ymmv here.

Technicalities

I’m not sure if it's simply a case of perception due to the large quantity of upper treble or some other tweak to the drivers but GM sounds a level above MSE when it comes to soundstage depth and height, as well as detail retrieval. GM has a large, open presentation that images very precisely across the stage with impressive macro-dynamic contrasting. There’s not really much else I can say about GM’s technical performance other than it is excellent and I can’t perceive any particular weaknesses that are worthy of note.

Sound impressions – tuning switch up


I’m going to be very brief here because I straight up do not like this tuning. The bass and treble are pulled right back and the mids are brought forward, but the midrange tonality doesn’t really change. To me this makes vocals sound shouty and exacerbates the colder tonality without sufficient bass to balance it out. I’m sure there are genres where this would work well, but for my library and preferences it’s way off the mark.

Comparisons



Grand Maestro vs Maestro SE

I’ve referenced MSE throughout this post so if you’re reading this, I hope you already have an idea of how they stack up. But to reiterate, MSE has a bigger sub bass elevation with a little less midbass. The mids are similarly voiced, both leaning towards the leaner side of the spectrum but not to the point of being completely thin. Where they differ is in the treble with MSE being more relaxed, compared to GM’s more energetic and exciting treble tuning. A result of that tuning is that GM sounds more open and expansive, with better stage depth and height and a better sense of detail retrieval.

Grand Maestro vs Fir Radon 6 (red atom module)

Quite different presentations between these two but they’re both versatile with their pressure relief systems. I listen to RN6 using the red Atom module which is the least isolating. RN6 is significantly fuller and warmer through the midrange with a heavier mid bass response. Treble has a bit less upper treble air. GM overall sounds leaner and more revealing. Staging is bigger on GM in all directions, sounding much more open and expansive. GM also sounds more detailed and resolving at the expense of some texture and body. Sub bass is more elevated and goes deeper on GM.


I’ll add some more comparisons to this post once I’ve tested it against other IEMs in due course.


Overall thoughts

As a big electronic music fan, Grand Maestro ticks all the boxes. Amazing bass, amazing treble, gobs of detail, strong dynamics, highly detailed and clean midrange, and a massive soundstage. All this comes at the sacrifice of some midrange warmth that some might find unnatural sounding. Also, the more treble sensitive ears (specifically upper treble) may find it a bit too airy. People hoping for a direct upgrade to MSE will probably need to temper their expectations because I don’t believe GM is that. Whilst it is indeed more technical, the tuning differences make them two very different sounding IEMs, and each have their own strengths. I’ve heard rumours that FatFreq are working on a module that will bring GM’s sound closer to MSE, which I hope is true so I can sell MSE and recoup some funds lol. The vocal switch is a cool feature but it's something I personally won’t use very much I don’t think.

Excellent impressions, it’s a shame they didn’t include them and want to charge extra. This for me is what originally set them aside from 64 or FiR audio who both went to charge extra for desirable modules (64 doesn’t include the mX with 12t and as of now only offers the m12 with U4s, FiR doesn’t give the red with the XE6) I hope they start including them. At just shy of $3k the GM isn’t cheap, but the versatility of GM is what sets it apart from other sets. So only offering half of that through MT is an L for me especially when we are talking about pieces of plastic.

Glad you’re enjoying them as is though, IMO the GM smokes about 98% of IEMs on the market and is half the cost of higher performing sets.
 
May 7, 2023 at 11:52 AM Post #58,195 of 91,345
I paid extra for the red module for my custom xe6 and was not happy about it.

Take note iem producers...if you market your iems as "versatile" with "multiple sound settings," then make sure your iems are capable of producing those different sounds right outta the box...or market differently.

It also doesn't make any sense to establish distributor partnerships and undercut them yourself.
 
May 7, 2023 at 11:54 AM Post #58,196 of 91,345
FatFreq Grand Maestro Impressions

IMG_6111.jpeg
wow, this is a real rip off in my opinion....
@MusicTeck not a good news for a distributor i think. Why do the customers have to be punished by buying from the official distributor? Is it a known fact for you?
@Damz87 have you asked Andrew what would you pay ordering directly from Musicteck?
so much for "WELCOME TO THE FAMILY"

RIP equal treatment
 
May 7, 2023 at 12:43 PM Post #58,197 of 91,345
Hunt down an ALO CDM and pair it with Hugo2 in amp only mode, I think you'll be shocked given your tastes are similar to mine. Hugo2 technicalities with massive dynamics, increased air all around, increased bass impact, slightly more forward mids and awesome timbre. Nothing can compete with the effect of a high quality tube amp. I would put Hugo2 + CDM up against any modern DAP even though these have been out for many years. The only thing I'm looking for rn is a cable for Jewel, a Hugo3 in the near future and possibly new portable tube amps although the newest generation of audiophiles seems to have forgotten the magic of tubes which just aren't that feasible in a DAP size footprint which is why stepping up to a transportable setup is so awesome. Also pairing Hugo2 with a wireless device like the pi2aes will push the Hugo up even higher in technicalities as it will remove emi/rf completely and create a much darker background and more apparent micro-details in the form of texture.

Also what is the red and black cable you are using with Jewel? You mentioned it earlier but I can't find it now.
This one?

IMG_0551.jpeg


Its from a boutique manufacturer called Ear Audio. I really liked his cable for the 1266 Phi TC and now I really like it with the Jewel. The finishing could be better though.

That said, this cable brings out the bass and makes the lower treble more present to my ears. And I like the aesthetic combination with the Jewel.
 
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May 7, 2023 at 1:38 PM Post #58,199 of 91,345


While watching videos to hype myself up for my upcoming VE EXT, which I traded for the U18s with the incredibly kind @Blanchot, I clicked on this comparison. I found it interesting, besides him making the same points over and over and apologizing for his own opinion, that this guy mentioned the Shure KSE1200 as his benchmark IEM. Since the Shure SE846 (Gen 2) turned out to be some of my favorite sounding IEMs now as well, brain burn-in is real, I am now interested in the Cooler's opinion of today:

Have you ever tried the Shure KSE 1200? What did you think of it? Are they still relevant in their price bracket? (knowing Shure IEMs, they probably aren't) Are all these E-Stats built into modern chimera IEMs (yes, that's how I will call them from now on) the same technology, just more matured or do they work differently?
If you still own them, did your opinion change over time, with new releases coming in? Just any thoughts you have about them, I would really appreciate :)

Just to clarify, don't want to buy them right now at all, I just find them interesting because of their kind of clunky nature, what with their proprietary amp and all, and I thought it would be cool to listen to them one day.

I have lots of questions guys, please enlighten me! 🙏
 
May 7, 2023 at 1:50 PM Post #58,200 of 91,345


While watching videos to hype myself up for my upcoming VE EXT, which I traded for the U18s with the incredibly kind @Blanchot, I clicked on this comparison. I found it interesting, besides him making the same points over and over and apologizing for his own opinion, that this guy mentioned the Shure KSE1200 as his benchmark IEM. Since the Shure SE846 (Gen 2) turned out to be some of my favorite sounding IEMs now as well, brain burn-in is real, I am now interested in the Cooler's opinion of today:

Have you ever tried the Shure KSE 1200? What did you think of it? Are they still relevant in their price bracket? (knowing Shure IEMs, they probably aren't) Are all these E-Stats built into modern chimera IEMs (yes, that's how I will call them from now on) the same technology, just more matured or do they work differently?
If you still own them, did your opinion change over time, with new releases coming in? Just any thoughts you have about them, I would really appreciate :)

Just to clarify, don't want to buy them right now at all, I just find them interesting because of their kind of clunky nature, what with their proprietary amp and all, and I thought it would be cool to listen to them one day.

I have lots of questions guys, please enlighten me! 🙏


Most 'electrostatic' drivers in IEMs are electret driver. Rather than requiring high voltage on the driver plates, a small, effectively permanent charge is applied to the driver diaphragm itself. There were several over ear electret based electrostats over the years - some of the earliest electrostatic headphones were made by Koss and were electrets. More recently there were some hybrid chinese models I saw around that had a dynamic driver with an electret thrown in for the highs.

As with all things in this hobby, historically over ear people would claim an electret isn't a true electrostat, but in practice there isn't much performance difference, at least at small scale. Over ear, not sure you could get the motive force for kicking bass etc, but in IEMs, particularly the hybrid variety you just use the electrets where they make sense (in the highs). I've never seen a full range electret IEM, but given they existed over ear back in the 60s I would assume they could offer passable performance but there's just little point when you can get better performance from a BA, planarmag or dynamic in the same small enclosure down there.

In other words, the KSE are a solution to a marketing problem that doesn't really exist... I also always found it cute how they had to add the disclaimer that they were the first 'sound isolating' true electrostatic earphone, since STAX has been offering electrostatic in ears for decades already.

Also, funny, you should bring up the SE846.2... did Shure ever start even selling the new green filter to existing owners? I get the blowback on Fatfreq here today, but telling owners to buy an entire new IEM for the filter, that seems like a whole other level. I guess it's not technically a 'microtransaction' if you have to rebuy the full game for that DLC lol.
 

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