The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.

[JS27]

Weird theory postulation around what might be described as two distinct modes of presentation. This is based on my own experience and some conversations some time ago with @SBranson. Taking something like EXT (and possibly Xe6) on one side and, say, IER Z1R, Traillii and Jewel on the other and the most striking categorical difference between the two groups of IEMs is that one group (Bird, Jewel, Z1R) all present different shades of what might be called a traditional 2-channel system like presentation where the music is being presented to you. EXT and Xe6, albeit very differently, go for what I might call a more purely immersive approach. One of the things I like about DD timbre and presentation is that it makes it easier for me to feel the music, not just viscerally but emotionally also. When EXT is at the top of its game for me because, just as the marketing literature says, it's taking me right to the heart and soul of what I'm listening to in a really tangible, deep and enveloping sort of way-- it's not being presented to me, I'm feeling a real sense of oneness with it, if you'll forgive the woo. Just some Sunday afternoon musings. I'm not implying everyone will or should perceive things this way...but this is something I've been coming to grips with around my own experiences with IEMS. YMMV etc etc.

My preference towards the EXT/XE6 is that they present a very compelling, textured take on what I like in the headphone world of DD's. The bass is booming, the mids are juicy, the treble is sparkling....it's like all the best flavors all at once. I'm not aiming for the techincals....I'm here for the soul. They are a continuation of my favorite type of sound approach (from the HP world) and work extremely well with the music I listen to most on the N8ii (Metal/EDM-ambient/etc.). If I was an IEM-first fellow in terms of listening time, I'd own the Traillii and Phoenix as well (from what I've personally heard and thought best of in the BA world). But on what I'd get the most (not all, but most) value out of with those types of IEM....I have desktop stacks/electrostatics that lead the way. For classical and jazz, Trailli isn't taking ear time away from my Atrium off the WA33. Or my HD800/S off the Stellaris. Or my Stax stack. That's not a criticism or failing of the higher-end BA stuff....the EXT/XE6 just bring a flavor appealing enough I sometimes plug them right into my big-boy equipment. To take SD's line of reasoning.....as much as I like Trailli/Phoenix, tying up $4K for the occasional "wow, this is nice" moment.....nah. But I would do murder for the EXT.

The IER-1ZR is more a wildcard style transducer for me. Almost a flip of the earlier comparison of the EXT and IER-1ZR shared in thread a few posts back (or probably a dozen pages by the time I reply here)......the 1ZR is a really neat niche player. In EDM/ambient and classical/jazz that don't over-stuff the mids with activity....really neat presentation. But on things like metal.......fizzle city in the mids/no thank you.

 

[Rockwell75]

I'm here for the soul.

Nail hits head. I may find myself in the same camp of audio deviants a yourself for this and at his point I don't think I could deconstruct the matter enough to get right to the bottom of it and explain it thoroughly (though I have been trying hard lately with a few of my posts) but for my preferences I don't think any IEM out there right now comes close to EXT in this-- not the Bird, not Jewel, not Phonix, not anything I have heard. This isn't to say those IEMs aren't arguably better in a whole host of ways, but when it comes right down to connecting with the heart and soul of what I'm listening to EXT is where it's at. YMMV etc. etc. etc.

The IER-1ZR is more a wildcard style transducer for me. Almost a flip of the earlier comparison of the EXT and IER-1ZR shared in thread a few posts back (or probably a dozen pages by the time I reply here)......the 1ZR is a really neat niche player. In EDM/ambient and classical/jazz that don't over-stuff the mids with activity....really neat presentation. But on things like metal.......fizzle city in the mids/no thank you.

When push comes to shove the IER Z1R may still have the best treble I've ever heard...or perhaps tied with the likes of Traillii and for music that benefits from a nice sub-bass & treble emphasis the IER Z1R through a Shanling M8 (I haven't heard it through the M9 but I imagine it would be great also) is a thing to behold. It's one IEM I might buy again (for a third time!) just for it's use as a special items player. Out of all the IEMs I've sold through the years that's the one that haunts me the most.

Edit: It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which we can split hairs around minutia that would be totally lost on like 99.9% of the population who are totally content with their air pods.

 

[Neweymatt]

Z1R -

I've had some fit issues - at times, the right ear pops out. At best, I need to keep relatively still. But, they excite the hell out of me - and put a smile on my face when time to indulge with quite a lot of my library. The stock hybrids in the largest size work well, I'll have to seek more out or something similar - tried a few in the collection today and Azla Short Standard in large worked very well... need more time to ascertain if I'm happy with the sound but initial impressions are good. I had considered Z1R an all-rounder in the first week or so in that it works with any genre - I've found the odd crack though where treble zings a touch too much. In terms of fit, I can't classify as an all-rounder now either - even with the best fit, it requires occasional adjustment. I couldn't ever take them on a train, flight, go walking etc.That said, where it works, it works beautifully and like my NW-WM1A, a classic and a keeper.

It took me about a month of experimenting with different tips on the Z1R to settle on Final E, size M. The soft silicon makes it easy for me to get a deep fit just past the bend in my ear canal, the IEM is locked in and is comfortable for at least a couple of hours.

I found Azla Sednas to be a bit to rigid for comfort, and the Xelastec was a bit too sticky and would get stuck in my ears.

I guess I'm lucky that fit is not an issue for me, and while I won't probably go running with the Z1R, I'm happy to use it out and around no problem.

 

[CL14715]

It took me about a month of experimenting with different tips on the Z1R to settle on Final E, size M. The soft silicon makes it easy for me to get a deep fit just past the bend in my ear canal, the IEM is locked in and is comfortable for at least a couple of hours.

I found Azla Sednas to be a bit to rigid for comfort, and the Xelastec was a bit too sticky and would get stuck in my ears.

I guess I'm lucky that fit is not an issue for me, and while I won't probably go running with the Z1R, I'm happy to use it out and around no problem.

Customs have ruined me. You should try custom art for the non custom offerings.

 

[SBranson]

Weird theory postulation around what might be described as two distinct modes of presentation. This is based on my own experience and some conversations some time ago with @SBranson. Taking something like EXT (and possibly Xe6) on one side and, say, IER Z1R, Traillii and Jewel on the other and the most striking categorical difference between the two groups of IEMs is that one group (Bird, Jewel, Z1R) all present different shades of what might be called a traditional 2-channel system like presentation where the music is being presented to you. EXT and Xe6, albeit very differently, go for what I might call a more purely immersive approach. One of the things I like about DD timbre and presentation is that it makes it easier for me to feel the music, not just viscerally but emotionally also. When EXT is at the top of its game for me because, just as the marketing literature says, it's taking me right to the heart and soul of what I'm listening to in a really tangible, deep and enveloping sort of way-- it's not being presented to me, I'm feeling a real sense of oneness with it, if you'll forgive the woo. Just some Sunday afternoon musings. I'm not implying everyone will or should perceive things this way...but this is something I've been coming to grips with around my own experiences with IEMS. YMMV etc etc.

This reminds me of Marshall McLuhan and the idea of “the medium is the message”.
I’ve been some time now with my Abyss Diana Phi and I’m increasingly using them over earbuds and I never use iems any more (I only have the CCA CRA left). Listening to some songs last night I haven’t listened to since I had the Traillii, I notice the level of absolute detail is not there but the presentation is so different that it’s revealed some interesting ideas in reference to the above quote.
The Traillii has, for an iem, a very large stage but more because of room cues. Vocals, instruments and such are very detailed and i can make out minute subtle sounds of each. But in a way, upon reflection it’s like being a disembodied being floating within an musical space and being able to zoom on whatever detail captures my attention. The Diana’s however, do not have the raw detail, and don’t have a particularly large stage being a planar but the presentation is much more of a singer and a piano, or the real timbre of Eva Cassidy’s guitar is much more of a crunch than an Apollonian rendering of pure tone and timbre, a la Traillii. I feel I get closer to the illusion of the 2 channel system in that I feel like the image of the music includes me as an embodied listener. I can’t zoom in as much but I can “see” the whole better, in a sense more real as if in a real concert I’d never really be able to pick out the details that the Traillii can…. unless the artist let me sit 6” away from him/her.
This isn’t objectively better but it is to me…. Why?

Perhaps my age, but for me music has always been about performance. As a child I was in recitals for multiple instruments and school plays. Futher, growing up music was mostly with radio and later TV video shows, CBC’s Video Hits with Samantha Taylor anyone? In these times, access to music was mostly by chance or something you performed. But even then the early videos were basically filmed performances (until Michael Jackson’s Thriller).

So in my mind and experience music is performance, there is an audience and a performer. I think this is why staging is so important to me in my choice of gear and my judgements of “correct”.

Now, in the modern era of music on demand and computer music, the idea of the performer and the stage has shifted. I’m not saying that performances aren’t happening or viable but a rave is not a jazz band, a DJ is not a pianist. As music, and video, change to an on demand service, I think the perception of music has changed and iems like the XE6, though not my cup of tea, represent a new form of music as a cultural element.
The medium of the means of access to music is changing the way we perceive music, hence the quote. The idea of music “in our heads” has moved from headphones that try to fool you into having a private 2 channel experience (which obviously is to fool us from being at the original performance), to iems that put you in the middle of the music in a way that would be physically impossible. It’s the transhumanist experience of music in that we are part of the music as “truth” itself has become a relative term rather than an absolute. It’s a morphing of the perception of music in step with a more virtual world. Just as we are “at a meeting“ through a zoom call, we are “within” the recording we are listening to. And the iems, in my opinion, are likewise in step with this evolution.

Anyway…. more Sunday musings to add to yours… @Rockwell75

 

[PHLHarmonic]

I really like certain aspects of both the EXT and XE6. The XE6 I'd think about going custom with in the future because it'd help with the slightly heavier weight but moreover improve the sub-bass even further. I don't think FiR re-shells them, but it'd be worth the upgrade as a keeper. Having had the EXT replaced I spent a hot second with it and noted that the sub-bass on it was much better overall; not XE6 levels, but it does do well, probably helped by the tight, custom-feeling fit. It's funny that I had demoed it before buying and got home and didn't immediately notice that something was off with the unit, but getting it replaced puts me into a position where I once again want to really A/B the two.

The Arias I've brought along with me are "fine" by all means, and something I think I could very much recommend as a cheap, on-the-go alternative that wouldn't feel bad to lose. The massive price increase provides such a jump in technical ability that you can't help but notice the differences once you've heard them for a little while, regardless of the model, since they most all start to get into the same ballpark of quality. They're not headphones in terms of space, but the actual clarity of the sound is exceptional. I put my headphones on every now and then which still cost several hundred dollars and I actually prefer how good the IEMs sound by comparison. Where would I go from there in the IEM world? To be honest, I'm not sure if there are many places to go.

 

[RTodd]

This reminds me of Marshall McLuhan and the idea of “the medium is the message”.
I’ve been some time now with my Abyss Diana Phi and I’m increasingly using them over earbuds and I never use iems any more (I only have the CCA CRA left). Listening to some songs last night I haven’t listened to since I had the Traillii, I notice the level of absolute detail is not there but the presentation is so different that it’s revealed some interesting ideas in reference to the above quote.
The Traillii has, for an iem, a very large stage but more because of room cues. Vocals, instruments and such are very detailed and i can make out minute subtle sounds of each. But in a way, upon reflection it’s like being a disembodied being floating within an musical space and being able to zoom on whatever detail captures my attention. The Diana’s however, do not have the raw detail, and don’t have a particularly large stage being a planar but the presentation is much more of a singer and a piano, or the real timbre of Eva Cassidy’s guitar is much more of a crunch than an Apollonian rendering of pure tone and timbre, a la Traillii. I feel I get closer to the illusion of the 2 channel system in that I feel like the image of the music includes me as an embodied listener. I can’t zoom in as much but I can “see” the whole better, in a sense more real as if in a real concert I’d never really be able to pick out the details that the Traillii can…. unless the artist let me sit 6” away from him/her.
This isn’t objectively better but it is to me…. Why?

Perhaps my age, but for me music has always been about performance. As a child I was in recitals for multiple instruments and school plays. Futher, growing up music was mostly with radio and later TV video shows, CBC’s Video Hits with Samantha Taylor anyone? In these times, access to music was mostly by chance or something you performed. But even then the early videos were basically filmed performances (until Michael Jackson’s Thriller).

So in my mind and experience music is performance, there is an audience and a performer. I think this is why staging is so important to me in my choice of gear and my judgements of “correct”.

Now, in the modern era of music on demand and computer music, the idea of the performer and the stage has shifted. I’m not saying that performances aren’t happening or viable but a rave is not a jazz band, a DJ is not a pianist. As music, and video, change to an on demand service, I think the perception of music has changed and iems like the XE6, though not my cup of tea, represent a new form of music as a cultural element.
The medium of the means of access to music is changing the way we perceive music, hence the quote. The idea of music “in our heads” has moved from headphones that try to fool you into having a private 2 channel experience (which obviously is to fool us from being at the original performance), to iems that put you in the middle of the music in a way that would be physically impossible. It’s the transhumanist experience of music in that we are part of the music as “truth” itself has become a relative term rather than and absolute. It’s a morphing of the perception of music in step with a more virtual world. Just as we are “at a meeting“ through a zoom call, we are “within” the recording we are listening to. And the iems, in my opinion, are likewise in step with this evolution.

Anyway…. more Sunday musings to add to yours… @Rockwell75

Wow. Awesome writing.

Left me thinking about how I listen to music, how I may not be as engaged as I think I am. I know my mind is plagued with thoughts sometimes triggered by what I am hearing though more often dwelling on something I am making or going to make.

Is listening to music an attempt at distraction, or just consumption, like eating and breathing.
Do I live to listen or listen to live?

 

[Sifo]

I should try out the Red Tonkotsu next time I’m there!

Guaranteed visit to Konjiki any time I head up to headfoneshop lol

In other news, I just bought an RME ADI-2 DAC FS v2 Great price based on recent trends on CAM.

 

[SBranson]

Do I live to listen or listen to live?

These days, with a couple of teenagers just getting into the “difficult” stuff.. it’s an emphatic both.. more important than eating or breathing at times.

 

[Orfik]

DX240 is a DAP. Dethonray Tender 1 is a pair of IEMs. Did you mean Dethonray DTR1+ DAP? I only have experience with DTR1 and it was not suitable for hybrid IEMs with BAs, the wall of hissing was unbearable. It's a very powerful higher output voltage dap, great for single DD iems and more demanding headphones. But for hybrid IEMs like Mest MKII, DTR1 original model wasn't suitable. I have read the updated 1+ model was redesigned to be friendlier with sensitive IEMs, so it might work better with Mest MKII. Plus, it is audio only playback, very minimalistic button only controls and GUI (makes L&P GUI look advanced in comparison), no balanced output, and proprietary micro-hdmi power connector. It's not even a fair comparison to DX240 which is a super fast advanced android DAP with a modular amp design.

Yeah, sorry. Does anyone have a comparison between the DX240 and the Dethonray DTR 1+ with the Mest MKII?

 

[dmphile]

Konjiki's my favourite place in the GTA. I legit eat their Red Tonkotsu like once a week.

Same here, right next to Sansotei for the guilty pleasure of Tonkotsu Black.

Whenever I head out that way to meet some of my East Coast audio friends you guys need to take me out for Ramen.

I should try out the Red Tonkotsu next time I’m there!

My go to place used to be Shoryuken Ramen but sadly they closed up shop. I love their thing straight noodles so much! And for broth, I still think Isshin’s Red Miso is the best. I used to joke around before that I’ll order just the noodles over at Shoryuken and just the broth at Isshin and do a fusion


We’ll definitely do it man! East Coast Canuck Audio Meet & Ramen


I love Sansotei’s Miso Black Ramen!!! It has such a nice aroma!

I've yet to try the Red Tonkotsu...that'll be my next choice! Might be a @Sifo @riverground @Rockwell75 ramen fest if you're in town Rock.

 

[solstice15]

A few traveling visitors for the week...Jewel will be getting a well deserved break. Didn't give these a proper chance at canjam I feel, let's see what all the fuss is about!

So, I've had these for two days and think I've heard enough for some comparisons.

There’s a saying in my field “if you don’t know what to look for, you won’t see it”


I think that applies to my canjam experience – I listened to the Xe6 and then the Kr5 without having read up on the tech or the unique tuning (Xe6 specifically) and therefore probably played songs from my test playlist that exploited weaknesses. I gave the Xe6 like 10 minutes, wasn’t impressed, switched to Kr5, again wasn’t impressed, then skipped the NE4 entirely…a big mistake.


I can see why Fir has not been shy about getting these out on tour, kinetic bass is real, and I think any bass lover who spends some time with it will be compelled to add it to their collection. It’s difficult to describe, there’s a texture added to the bass/sub-bass like a light buzzy sensation that’s pretty addictive. This is completely new, not something I’ve experienced with any other IEM or headphone. In addition to that, the impact is different, less boom more air if that makes sense.



The main feature of the series for me is the kinetic bass and the three models are just different presentations with that same core ingredient. So, the pricing structure somewhat confuses me, but I guess I should’ve learned from my prior experiences with intra-manufacturer price:enjoyment ratio (ie. Tia Trio and U18 >>>> Tia Fourte)



There are plenty of impressions/reviews on these at this point, so I’ll just do a quick take on each one.



NE4

My favorite of the 3 and likely a summer purchase. I understand how @metaljem77 decided to order them on the spot at canjam. These are, as others have said, the most balanced of the trio. Here I get kinetic bass with no compromises elsewhere, but also nothing particularly special elsewhere. I can put these in and listen to a shuffle of the varied genres I listen to and not feel lacking at any point. Mids/vocals are decently forward, treble is smooth, exceptional kinetic bass, technicalities largely on par with totl (assuming we consider Trailli/Jewel in a different category….totl+ ?). Oddly enough I feel I get the greatest kinetic bass sensation with this set, haven’t figured out why.

Kr5

The clearest and most technically competent of the three while maintaining the kinetic bass. I find these are nice for a relaxing listen as the upper mids are blunted, but I find the other two more fun and/or unique. I’ll need to give these more time I think.


Xe6

These are strange and only work well for me with certain genres (rap (male), bassy pop, non vocal trance, male vocals), but when they do work they’re quite special. That said, if they are still in my ears on the wrong side of my playlist they're decidedly unimpressive. There’s a heavy bass emphasis but I don’t necessarily consider them bass heavy, on sheer quantity they’re not at LX/Evo level. It’s just that any bass in a track is brought to front of the mix regardless of what you’re listening to. It’s fun with the right music, but not an all arounder.

 

[metaljem77]

So, I've had these for two days and think I've heard enough for some comparisons.

There’s a saying in my field “if you don’t know what to look for, you won’t see it”


I think that applies to my canjam experience – I listened to the Xe6 and then the Kr5 without having read up on the tech or the unique tuning (Xe6 specifically) and therefore probably played songs from my test playlist that exploited weaknesses. I gave the Xe6 like 10 minutes, wasn’t impressed, switched to Kr5, again wasn’t impressed, then skipped the NE4 entirely…a big mistake.


I can see why Fir has not been shy about getting these out on tour, kinetic bass is real, and I think any bass lover who spends some time with it will be compelled to add it to their collection. It’s difficult to describe, there’s a texture added to the bass/sub-bass like a light buzzy sensation that’s pretty addictive. This is completely new, not something I’ve experienced with any other IEM or headphone. In addition to that, the impact is different, less boom more air if that makes sense.



The main feature of the series for me is the kinetic bass and the three models are just different presentations with that same core ingredient. So, the pricing structure somewhat confuses me, but I guess I should’ve learned from my prior experiences with intra-manufacturer price:enjoyment ratio (ie. Tia Trio and U18 >>>> Tia Fourte)



There are plenty of impressions/reviews on these at this point, so I’ll just do a quick take on each one.



NE4

My favorite of the 3 and likely a summer purchase. I understand how @metaljem77 decided to order them on the spot at canjam. These are, as others have said, the most balanced of the trio. Here I get kinetic bass with no compromises elsewhere, but also nothing particularly special elsewhere. I can put these in and listen to a shuffle of the varied genres I listen to and not feel lacking at any point. Mids/vocals are decently forward, treble is smooth, exceptional kinetic bass, technicalities largely on par with totl (assuming we consider Trailli/Jewel in a different category….totl+ ?). Oddly enough I feel I get the greatest kinetic bass sensation with this set, haven’t figured out why.

Kr5

The clearest and most technically competent of the three while maintaining the kinetic bass. I find these are nice for a relaxing listen as the upper mids are blunted, but I find the other two more fun and/or unique. I’ll need to give these more time I think.


Xe6

These are strange and only work well for me with certain genres (rap (male), bassy pop, non vocal trance, male vocals), but when they do work they’re quite special. That said, if they are still in my ears on the wrong side of my playlist they're decidedly unimpressive. There’s a heavy bass emphasis but I don’t necessarily consider them bass heavy, on sheer quantity they’re not at LX/Evo level. It’s just that any bass in a track is brought to front of the mix regardless of what you’re listening to. It’s fun with the right music, but not an all arounder.

Were you at CJ SG? I get the impression that we may be outliers in terms of our preference for NE4 over KR5 and XE6. The latter was something I was super keen on, but I’ve auditioned it 2x, and my heart just wasn’t won over. And I’m with you where I actually felt that NE4 gave me the best kinetic bass sensation too. Whatever (possible) areas it may be lacking in, I was actually contented with it. I can’t wait to receive my customised set, and cable roll. Given the fairly different types of music genres I listen to, I don’t need one IEM to be the end-all.

 

[aaf evo]

Were you at CJ SG? I get the impression that we may be outliers in terms of our preference for NE4 over KR5 and XE6. The latter was something I was super keen on, but I’ve auditioned it 2x, and my heart just wasn’t won over. And I’m with you where I actually felt that NE4 gave me the best kinetic bass sensation too. Whatever (possible) areas it may be lacking in, I was actually contented with it. I can’t wait to receive my customised set, and cable roll. Given the fairly different types of music genres I listen to, I don’t need one IEM to be the end-all.

I also prefer the NE4 over the KR5. The XE6 for me is a different beast all together though.

 

[solstice15]

Were you at CJ SG?

I wish, I need to visit SG some day. I went to canjam NYC