[astrostar59]

Now come on - you know the Stax 009S with a good tubed headamp and dac are the bees knees.

Well I have heard the older 009 on the BHSE many times. Also on the WES. I used to own a nice KGSShv to drive mine, and had a fab tubed R2R DAC at that time, the Audio Note (UK) DAC 5 which is a 30K DAC.

But I now find I like planers better, the Abyss, Susvara and LCD4 is my ideal now. Personal tastes of course....

 

[PointyFox]

It doesn’t matter to us whether or not you can hear a difference. Many of us here can easily hear a difference. Which is why so many people are eager to correct you because to their point of view, you are sharing misguiding information for others that might be reading this.
Notice that i’m not trying to debate you. You are entitled to your own opinion. BTW, I doubt “Golden Ears” would hear any better than flesh covered ears due to resonance.

Your information is misguiding people into spending exorbitant amounts of money on snake oil. Argumentum ad populum doesn't mean that it is correct. You should know this.

 

[astrostar59]

Your information is misguiding people into spending exorbitant amounts of money on snake oil. Argumentum ad populum doesn't mean that it is correct. You should know this.

It is actually the other way round IMO. If we go back to basics, why do you post on this forum, if you believe all DACs sound the same. You must be made up with your end game system, and not feel any need to look into this hobby further. I am jealous. But the other side of this is there is another world of sound quality to be had, by looking and learning. Again, it is why I like the hobby and come on this forum. I have not 'stopped' looking or learning.

PointyFox, my advice is spend more time on this subject. Contact an audio dealer and try some new products. There is major advances to be had once you get beyond this mindset, I am being honest with you, trying to guide you.

It doesn't surprise me much if you have found many DACs on tight budgets sounding the same. They are probably all using the same (sabre) chip, similar simple PS and op amp. Not surprised at all.

 

[-HaVoC-Tzu-]

.

 

[-HaVoC-Tzu-]

Your information is misguiding people into spending exorbitant amounts of money on snake oil. Argumentum ad populum doesn't mean that it is correct. You should know this.

Right, people should only spend as much as it makes sense for them to spend. If they can’t hear a difference then don’t waste your money.
Try before you buy.

 

[Scgorg]

I don't want to create any unnecessary and hostile discussion, but I think you should always trust your own ears. If pointyfox says the he personally can't hear a difference then that is great! If astrostar says he can hear a difference then that is great as well! I don't think people should cling to their own personal beliefs so strongly that they feel the need to call out others who have had differing experiences. I think it is better for people to try themselves and then see what they think. For example if a new member decides to buy an SR-007 and then asks whether he should splurge on a KGSSHV/Carbon/BHSE he should first try a measly SRM-252S and see for himself, perhaps he will find that he doesn't need the BHSE, he is then happy to have saved money. The other thing also works, where someone is happy that they could experience and buy the BHSE because they felt a drastic improvement.

What I'm saying is, don't trust everybody else's ears, they may not be like your own. Instead experience things yourself and conclude from that. From what I can see both pointyfox and astrostar are happy with their setups, so why should they then argue who is right? In their own mind they are both right, and that is what matters, your personal enjoyment of the sound your system produces.

I hope we can avoid hostility in these threads as it serves no purpose, and on that note I hope you all have a nice day!

 

[walakalulu]

Well said sir. My ears have cost me dearly. Recently I treated myself to Atlas Asimi interconnect between dac and headamp but wouldn’t suggest many do the same. I must be nuts but my ears told me otherwise.

 

[bluesaint]

Personally I'd be ecstatic if i can't tell the difference between DACs and still able to fully satisfy my end game search.. But alas, no such luck lol.

 

[catscratch]

The whole "nobody has ever heard a difference" line is just plain wrong. Plenty of people have. Look at Tyll's Big Sound 2015 - most people couldn't tell the difference between sources in a double blind test, but one person could. Reliably.

It's a pretty standard misinterpretation of the data. If you have a group and 90% of that group score no better than 50/50 but 10% can reliably id something, this doesn't prove that there is no difference - it proves the opposite.

There is a good point to be made in this, however. The differences between two well-designed sources are small, and your chances of hearing them aren't great. At the same time, confirmation bias is very real, and a controlled double-blind test is generally the best way to go about these sorts of things. However confirmation bias swings both ways, and if you believe that there is no difference between anything, you're more likely to ignore the differences even when they exist.

Human hearing is something of a bell curve. Most people won't be able to tell the difference between two good sources, but will be able to tell the difference between a good source and garbage. A few have bricks for ears and can't tell anything apart, and a few can tell the difference even between two well designed sources. Of course, we all like to pretend we belong to the latter group, but actually testing these things for yourself and keeping an open mind is usually the best way to go.

For the record, a decade and a half ago I would have told you "source first!" and did, repeatedly. Today, that's no longer my stance. Digital has come a long way and there are plenty of good sources that sound good enough for most people which aren't too expensive, and wasting thousands on what is essentially a moving target is not something I consider a good idea. But, there's still stuff that sounds like crap out there, too...

 

[pegasus21]

I have built a few DIY DACs and they sounded very different indeed. Costs ranged from 2K - 5K.

Measured performance on DACs is one of the big cons in the last 30 years of digital. I am glad I don't read that stuff anymore, it doesn't tally with the sound I hear.

I think there are some misconceptions about DACs, Many think because it is digital it is 'bits are bits' so no loss, and everything sounds that same. That is not true at all. Then we need to consider a DAC is essentially 65% pre-amplifier with a DAC board fitted. I call it a DAC pre-amplifier. So a bit like a phono pre-amplifier, it really has to be a great pre-amplifier to sound good. I challenge anyone to claim all pre-amplifiers sound the same. We need a great PS and a great gain stage for starters to get a great sound out of it. That is just base requirement.

But most folk on here know there is a marked difference between DACs, amplifiers and headphones. It all matters.

Since you've built your own DACs possibly using different DAC chips and that you're also possibly stating that these different DACs sound different. Maybe you might be able to shed some light on a burning question I have about how much the actual DAC chips impart to the overall sound.

Typically in all DACs, you have at least 1 to 3 analogue stages after the DAC chips and before the signal exits the chassis of the DAC and is output to the input stage of another device say an amplifier.

In all cases, you have an LPF stage. In some cases, you may also have a voltage gain stage before a buffer.

In your DIY DACs, are they typically using the same design for the LPF, voltage gain and buffer stage (if applicable)? If they are not there is no control. How can we say with certainty that these analogue stages do not change the sound of the DAC chips and thus causing different DAC chips to sound different?

 

[astrostar59]

Since you've built your own DACs possibly using different DAC chips and that you're also possibly stating that these different DACs sound different. Maybe you might be able to shed some light on a burning question I have about how much the actual DAC chips impart to the overall sound.

Typically in all DACs, you have at least 1 to 3 analogue stages after the DAC chips and before the signal exits the chassis of the DAC and is output to the input stage of another device say an amplifier.

In all cases, you have an LPF stage. In some cases, you may also have a voltage gain stage before a buffer.

In your DIY DACs, are they typically using the same design for the LPF, voltage gain and buffer stage (if applicable)? If they are not there is no control. How can we say with certainty that these analogue stages do not change the sound of the DAC chips and thus causing different DAC chips to sound different?

I built up 3 versions of the Audio Note DACs. All used the same AD1865 NK chip but had different PS and gain stage.

They also had different qualities of I/V transformer and caps, resistors, tube types. And one of the had a shunt PS on the digital board. And different OPTs.

All were NOS and filterless, all blew away off the shelf DACs I tried in range up to 8K euros at least.

Chips have a sound, it has taken the big chip companies only 30 years to realise that LOL. To my ears NOS types sound the most natural. But as in any DAC, you need a good PS and gain stage, or it will sound synthetic and not realistic.

 

[Sound Eq]

hi, I do not know where else to post as it seems I tried in other threads but no answers, so maybe here I will get some answers

does it have to be only the expensive model to feel the difference between stax 007TII and those from Mjolinr audio, to be used with 007 mk2 or 009 s, so what bout those from mjolnir in the price range of 2000-3000 usd range, are those a big upgrade to stax 007tII. And what would such an upgrade provide in terms of sound . To be honest I am not planning to spend 5k or 6K usd on an amp for stax


what bout just using an ifi iesl with my ifi ican pro, would that not be as good as some of the recommended mjolnir amps

currently i have 007 mk2 with 007tii -- using chord hugo 2 as a dac-- i adore the sound

planning to get the new 009s or if the rumours are true a bout a new omega that will come out

also have 407 and 307 which are fine

what other models are worthing adding to the collection besides L700 and L300 LE

 

[statfi]

confirmation bias is very real, and a controlled double-blind test is generally the best way to go about these sorts of things. ...

Could some of you give me links on your favorite "definitions" of double-blind testing? I really do want to know "what is standard".

As a little background, I am an inveterate tweaker, and am frequently and consciously worried about confirmation bias. I use ABABA...testing ad nauseum until I am satisfied with the result *in my own mind* which is, which I hope combats confirmation bias but obviously leaves lots of opportunity for it to corrupt the final decision. I have noticed, over time, that my ultimate choice sometimes does not agree with my expectation, and sometimes does. I take the former case as some indication that I am not completely polluted with confirmation bias. Of course, I take the latter case as an indication that "I really was right all along", which is scary in the current context.

One of the things I have noticed in my ABABA.... testing is that the material differences often do not become consciously apparent to apparent to me in the first one or two AB cycles. "My ear/brain system" needs to "consciously learn" what the difference is. Once I have learned what the difference is, I can pick it out much more easily.

My impression is that even if I have not learned how to identify a particular improvement, my listening experience improves when that improvement is in effect. In other words, I do not need to be a trained listener in order to benefit from improvements only a trained listener might be able to identify.

I do not use double-blind testing because it is so difficult to implement, especially as a "lone-wolf" audiophile.

Going back to my request at the top, I want to see how "experts" accommodate my perceived need of training within the context of rigorous double-blind testing and look for ideas on how to unbias testing without the personnel required for double-blind.

 

[astrostar59]

hi, I do not know where else to post as it seems I tried in other threads but no answers, so maybe here I will get some answers

does it have to be only the expensive model to feel the difference between stax 007TII and those from Mjolinr audio, to be used with 007 mk2 or 009 s, so what bout those from mjolnir in the price range of 2000-3000 usd range, are those a big upgrade to stax 007tII. And what would such an upgrade provide in terms of sound . To be honest I am not planning to spend 5k or 6K usd on an amp for stax


what bout just using an ifi iesl with my ifi ican pro, would that not be as good as some of the recommended mjolnir amps

currently i have 007 mk2 with 007tii -- using chord hugo 2 as a dac-- i adore the sound

planning to get the new 009s or if the rumours are true a bout a new omega that will come out

also have 407 and 307 which are fine

what other models are worthing adding to the collection besides L700 and L300 LE

I am not a fan of the Mjolnir amps. They are ok, but overpriced IMO, the case work is poor / basic. The PS in many of his amps is not following KGs design and scaled back. I would look for a nice used KGSShv or KGST. The new Stax T-8000 is bad, very weak sound for the money. The Trilogy H1 is not much better. Maybe approach Headamp for a deal on the BHSE?

Or go planars and use a speaker amp, that is what I have done. SET amp with planars is heavenly.

Back on your topic, the Stax amps have always been the ear link, just not driving the 009 or 007s to their potential IMO.

 

[protoss]

Or go planars and use a speaker amp

Quick off topic again. And your views on the Gsx-mk2/mini running planars or dynamic vs speaker Amps?