The Stax Thread III
Dec 7, 2016 at 5:27 AM Post #10,696 of 25,567
The diaphragm is between the stators and under the dust guards. Pretty sure any major liquid getting in there would just straight kill the diaphragm from arcing. You'd be looking at a new diaphragm at that point. Also, even if you could theoretically clean it, you wouldn't want to in the first place as that would remove the coating necessary for it to function. Recoating diaphragms or replacing them is usually what people do if they're that damaged.
 
Also, ultrasonic cleaners work by cavitation. Pretty sure that would totally wreck something at the thickness of a stax diaphragm. You need something thicker than a millionth of a meter to stand up to that.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 6:40 AM Post #10,697 of 25,567
 
If (when?) I feel a need to upgrade yet further would the SRM-T1 power '007s adequately (in the short term at least) or would I "have to" go to a non-stax amp? 
By that, I mean would '007's sound better out of the T1 than the 404SE, as another step on the path to an endgame system. 
I would end up upgrading the amp as well, but it's a little easier to get past the minister for war and finances one step at a time.

 
I can't recommend the SRM-T1 with the SR-007. I had that for a short while, before upgrading the amp to a 717. The 717 is excellent with the 007 (within my frame of reference); the T1 is not. You'd get loose bass and a bit of a flat, compressed sound with the T1. However, the T1 does have a lovely midrange. I really liked the T1 with the Lambda Signature and the 202, but with the 007 I found the 717 to be a clear upgrade. I don't have experience with any of the bigger Kevin Gilmore amps. However, I can't say the 007 would sound better out of a T1 than a 404LE, nor the opposite, because that's entirely personal. Obviously it will work. If you're going to upgrade the amp and 'phones anyway at some point, it might be better to upgrade the amp first, to prevent disappointment when you plug in your new 007 into the T1 for the first time.
 
There is no 404SE by the way. There is a normal 404, also called 404 Signature by Stax, and a 404 Limited Edition (1000 pairs were made, for Stax's anniversary).
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 11:45 AM Post #10,698 of 25,567
No, please do not clean the electrostatic drivers like what you described. That will severely destroy the diaphragms.

As long as the dust covers are in good shape, your drivers won't get dirty.

 
 
  The diaphragm is between the stators and under the dust guards. Pretty sure any major liquid getting in there would just straight kill the diaphragm from arcing. You'd be looking at a new diaphragm at that point. Also, even if you could theoretically clean it, you wouldn't want to in the first place as that would remove the coating necessary for it to function. Recoating diaphragms or replacing them is usually what people do if they're that damaged.
 
Also, ultrasonic cleaners work by cavitation. Pretty sure that would totally wreck something at the thickness of a stax diaphragm. You need something thicker than a millionth of a meter to stand up to that.

Thank you for your replies.

Then, Is it safe just to spray the precision contact cleaner sold on the market? (such as CRC Quick Dry Electrical Contact Cleaner)
 
The reason I ask again is that I have already sprayed it to clean the diaphragm of my Sennheiser HD449 and it is working well until now.
In this case, it was not to spill the beverage there, but It was just to clean many dirt and contaminants on the diaphragm.
Now I do not know if this was the right thing to do.
No physical changes are visible to the naked eye, but the fine components or coatings needed to operate the diaphragm correctly may have been dissolved and removed by spraying.
However, I can not be sure this too because the sound is still output well.
I can not feel any sound quality difference.

I am not sure whether it is applicable to SR-009 diaphragm too.
 
If I should not use such contact cleaner and should not use microfiber cloth or soft bristles directly on it, I think the only way to clean the diaphragm once It is contaminated  is that sending it to STAX head office through an official distributor.
Is this right?
 
Additionally, have you ever had to replace the SR-009 diaphragm through STAX head office or official distributor?
If you have such experience, I wonder how much it cost.
 
I have emailed STAX head office but have not yet answered.
They seem to have little or no response to foreigners.
My official distributor/dealer also said that they do not know the cost.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM Post #10,700 of 25,567
I would never attempt to directly clean any driver on any headphone except MAYBE dynamic very carefully without any chemicals - just a very soft wipe for dust.  Maybe you should consider dust covers for your headphones when they are not in use if this is an ongoing problem for you?

I would wait until there is a degradation in sound, then send them back to Stax - it wouldn't be cheap considering that is the main part of the headphone.
 
Dec 7, 2016 at 3:12 PM Post #10,701 of 25,567
 
There is no 404SE by the way. There is a normal 404, also called 404 Signature by Stax, and a 404 Limited Edition (1000 pairs were made, for Stax's anniversary).

 
My bad.
I already have the Signature. (Which I abbreviated - but you are 100% correct- there is no "E" Edition on the box).
New one's (hopefully) will be the  Limited Edition (LE)
 
 
@headfiro55
re: Ultrasonic cleaning - this is frequencies between 20kHz and 40 kHz.
Could you just play high pitched sine waves through the dirty drivers and shake that crap off using your headphones themselves?
Your FR goes up to 42 kHz.
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 9:38 AM Post #10,702 of 25,567

The reason I ask again -> The reason why I ask again
 
  I would never attempt to directly clean any driver on any headphone except MAYBE dynamic very carefully without any chemicals - just a very soft wipe for dust.  Maybe you should consider dust covers for your headphones when they are not in use if this is an ongoing problem for you?

I would wait until there is a degradation in sound, then send them back to Stax - it wouldn't be cheap considering that is the main part of the headphone.

I see.
 
I used to disassemble SR-009 to clean the diaphragm before.
At that time, I accidentally touch the center of the diaphragm with my fingers.
Since then I have been worried that the performance of the diaphragm may drop due to skin oil or fine dust from the hands.
Fortunately, the sound comes out well.

I will continue to use it, and if I face strange problems, I will contact STAX.
The diaphragm looks very thin and sensitive, so I can not decide to spray Contact Cleaner on there.
 
These worries may be just my Obsessive-compulsive neurosis for expensive and loving thing.
 
   
My bad.
I already have the Signature. (Which I abbreviated - but you are 100% correct- there is no "E" Edition on the box).
New one's (hopefully) will be the  Limited Edition (LE)
 
 
@headfiro55
re: Ultrasonic cleaning - this is frequencies between 20kHz and 40 kHz.
Could you just play high pitched sine waves through the dirty drivers and shake that crap off using your headphones themselves?
Your FR goes up to 42 kHz.

What you are saying is convincing!
 
However, I think the fine fingerprints, stains and skin oil that come from touching the diaphragm by hand will not be erased.
 
I will continue to use it anyway.
I expect that the warranty period is already over so it will be very expensive to get service.
 
Thank you guys, your words have been a great reference.
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 12:50 PM Post #10,703 of 25,567
  Since getting my STAX system I have had little inclination to listen to my dynamic gear, and when I do I find myself a little underwhelmed by what I hear.
I'm looking to upgrade my Stax a little.
 
Currently SRM1-Mk2 (recently had all cap's replaced, and some other work done) and 404 Signature edition.
 
Looking at SRM-T1 + 404 Limited edition.
 
 
Is this much of an improvement?
 
If (when?) I feel a need to upgrade yet further would the SRM-T1 power '007s adequately (in the short term at least) or would I "have to" go to a non-stax amp? 
By that, I mean would '007's sound better out of the T1 than the 404SE, as another step on the path to an endgame system. 
I would end up upgrading the amp as well, but it's a little easier to get past the minister for war and finances one step at a time.


I had the Stax 717 for about a year with the 007s and it was ok. Probably the best Stax amp you can use for dynamic / dance music. Classic may be better on the 007T tube amp. But IMO I would try and find a used KGSShv to really get your 007s singing. That will be a big jump in sound quality for you as opposed to a side step to another Stax amp IMO.
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 3:13 PM Post #10,704 of 25,567
 
I had the Stax 717 for about a year with the 007s and it was ok. Probably the best Stax amp you can use for dynamic / dance music. Classic may be better on the 007T tube amp. But IMO I would try and find a used KGSShv to really get your 007s singing. That will be a big jump in sound quality for you as opposed to a side step to another Stax amp IMO.


good see you back. seen idiots at the other place banning you cause you don't know a thing - my eyes complete wong!
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 5:16 PM Post #10,705 of 25,567
 
  Since getting my STAX system I have had little inclination to listen to my dynamic gear, and when I do I find myself a little underwhelmed by what I hear.
I'm looking to upgrade my Stax a little.
 
Currently SRM1-Mk2 (recently had all cap's replaced, and some other work done) and 404 Signature edition.
 
Looking at SRM-T1 + 404 Limited edition.
 
 
Is this much of an improvement?
 
If (when?) I feel a need to upgrade yet further would the SRM-T1 power '007s adequately (in the short term at least) or would I "have to" go to a non-stax amp? 
By that, I mean would '007's sound better out of the T1 than the 404SE, as another step on the path to an endgame system. 
I would end up upgrading the amp as well, but it's a little easier to get past the minister for war and finances one step at a time.


I had the Stax 717 for about a year with the 007s and it was ok. Probably the best Stax amp you can use for dynamic / dance music. Classic may be better on the 007T tube amp. But IMO I would try and find a used KGSShv to really get your 007s singing. That will be a big jump in sound quality for you as opposed to a side step to another Stax amp IMO.

OK, thanks mate.
007's aren't a definite yet - but I do seem to be suffering from upgraditis...
Will see what pans out  - looks like the postage from the states is much higher than I expected so the deal may fall through.
If that;'s the case I'll just save my pennies until I can afford KGSShv or similar.
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 6:43 PM Post #10,706 of 25,567
 
If (when?) I feel a need to upgrade yet further would the SRM-T1 power '007s adequately (in the short term at least) or would I "have to" go to a non-stax amp? 
By that, I mean would '007's sound better out of the T1 than the 404SE, as another step on the path to an endgame system. 
I would end up upgrading the amp as well, but it's a little easier to get past the minister for war and finances one step at a time.

Depends on a couple of things, first, how loudly you listen, and second, how sensitive you are to changes in amplifiers.  If you don't listen very loudly then the differences in amplifiers will be lessened.  And some people are not that sensitive to differences between amplifiers.  For another perspective, here's an old quote from Darth Nut, who bought a Stax T2 in 1995, in 2003:
 
"To put the T2 in perspective, the move from a Lambda to Omega II is a bigger jump than a move from 007t to T2.
 
If I had to choose between (404 + T2) and (Omega II + 007t), I would choose (Omega II + 007t).
 
This is not so much a criticism of the T2, as it is a credit to the Omega II, which gets the sound so correct in so many ways. The T2 is a refinement along the same lines, whereas the Omega II is different enough a creature from the Lambdas.
 
I just don't want you to have undue expectations of the T2. You have to be aware of shrinking returns when you get so high up the price : performance curve. The T2 is truly more transparent than the 007t, but look at the price difference."
 
 
And then, here is a comment from spritzer in 2008,
 
"The T1 is ok as a budget amp for the Mk1 and I prefer it to the 007t."
 

I have a friend who is driving his SR-007 Mk Is with a modified T1 (better input jacks and wiring, better volume control) and he is reasonably happy with it - although he prefers my SRX Plus.

 
Dec 8, 2016 at 7:36 PM Post #10,707 of 25,567
@JimL11 - I listen at moderate volumes, around 85db is on the loud end of my usual scale.
The volume knob on my MK2 would seldom get past 11:00 o'clock, unless I'm listening to a particularly quiet recording.
I might occasionally "rock out" for a song, or part of a song, with the volume @ 12:00 o'clock.
 
I had little regard for my hearing when I was young - I try not to damage it any further now.
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 8:14 PM Post #10,708 of 25,567
Depends on a couple of things, first, how loudly you listen,


I am delighted with Dr. Stephen Smyth views in his recent interview/podcast (link at the Realizer A16 thread). He says that in his experience room acoustics make more difference than amplifiers or, believe it or not, transducers*. He also elaborates on the importance of amplitude and mainly time domain equalization.

I guess the virtualization of transducers in a room using headphones may increase the demand for a headphone amplifier power due to the reproduction of "bass overshoot/overhigh" from room nodes Dr. Smyth mentioned in his interview, an effect that is, as far as I understood, inserted in the room impulse response portion (RIR) of the virtualization filter.

But the equalization of low frequencies in time domain may reduce such demand, maybe offering similar results one would achieve if you hadn't such virtualization at all. In other words, as if the virtualized transducers decay were similar or identical to the natural headphones decay.

I also guess that, after the virtualization filter, the HRTF portion of it may also, as far as I know, reduce the high frequency amplitude if compared to mid and low frequency bands.

Since you wrote about power (voltage/current) requirements of electrostatic amplifiers when playing back the usual audio content (generally up to 10khz?) with no virtualization, I would like to ask, with due respect to your knowledge, one question that I cannot find the answer myself.

Do you believe that such filter (a personal room impulse response, i.e., RIR + personalized HRTF) could somehow change the reasoning you made in that occasion to encounter the power (voltage/current) requirements of electrostatic amplifiers?

*I still guess/believe with no technical proof that directivity must have a relevant influence in a room response and decay, at least in mid an high frequencies. I would like to hear your opinion about that also.

P.s.: Dr. Smyth also states that the jump from single ended to balanced is orders of magnitude less noticeable than the virtualization itself. Anyway, not that important with electrostatic amplifiers...
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 9:53 PM Post #10,709 of 25,567
Since you wrote about power (voltage/current) requirements of electrostatic amplifiers when playing back the usual audio content (generally up to 10khz?) with no virtualization, I would like to ask, with due respect to your knowledge, one question that I cannot find the answer myself.

Do you believe that such filter (a personal room impulse response, i.e., RIR + personalized HRTF) could somehow change the reasoning you made in that occasion to encounter the power (voltage/current) requirements of electrostatic amplifiers?

*I still guess/believe with no technical proof that directivity must have a relevant influence in a room response and decay, at least in mid an high frequencies. I would like to hear your opinion about that also.

Any kind of EQ can significantly modify the power requirements, but it also depends on how the EQ is distributed.  If you look at the power distribution of music, the most "wattage" tends to be in the 60 to 500 Hz region, whereas the high frequencies take relatively little power.  Also note that the power distribution of music also depends to some degree on what type of music you are listening to, although in general the power demands above 2-4 kHz are 5-20 dB lower, as pretty much all fundamental music frequencies are at or below 4 kHz, which is the highest that a piccolo or piano goes to.  This is why tweeters in a speaker rated for 200 watts may only be rated a 1-2 watts and yet won't burn up.  Now, bumping up the level by 3 dB, which is a relatively modest increase in volume, requires 2x the power.  If you do this in the power region of music, say from 50 to 500 Hz, the overall power demand may double whereas if you do it at 10 kHz, where there is very little power used to begin with, the overall power demand may change very little.  And of course, if the EQ drops a band by 3 dB over the entire 60-500 Hz region, you may need only half the power.
 
An example of this is the SR007 vs SR009.  If you look at the specs, they are only about 1 dB apart in output at 1 kHz, however the 007 produces a few dB less sound in the 2-5 kHz region, which is the frequency range the ear tends to use to judge the overall loudness of the sound.  So if you adjust them to sound subjectively the same loudness you have to crank up the volume a couple notches, which could represent 2-4x the power demand.  This is likely why the SR-007 is considered much more power hungry than the 009 even though the specifications are very similar.
 
Without knowing what the exact EQ is, it's hard to know whether overall power demands would increase or decrease, or by how much, which could be why Dr. Smyth didn't comment on this.  If you listen at levels that don't approach the limits, then an amplifier should be able to accommodate modest amounts of EQ, however if you listen at levels close to clipping, which apparently some do, then yeah, you'll probably get into trouble.  Kevin Gilmore reports that one Head-Fier at a meet managed to clip a DIY T2 with its +/- 500volt power supply, which pleased the Head-Fier and scared everyone around him as it was clearly audible across the room - we are talking levels over 110 dB, about the same as a live rock concert, and close to the average human pain threshold.  I'm not even going to go into how stupid this, just look at the number of older rockers who have significant hearing damage.  
 
In terms of directivity, a more directive speaker with an anechoic flat frequency response on axis will have a rolled off power response in the room.  For speakers in a box, low frequencies will be omnidirectional, while higher frequencies will be more directed forward, with the beam narrowing as the size of the driver approaches the wavelength of sound it is reproducing.  A dipole will have a more uniform figure 8 directivity and therefore a more uniform power response in the bass to midrange, although again at higher frequencies it will become more directive  -  this is all basic stuff that you can read in any acoustics text.  Not sure if you are asking something more specific than that.  
 
Dec 8, 2016 at 9:57 PM Post #10,710 of 25,567
  @JimL11 - I listen at moderate volumes, around 85db is on the loud end of my usual scale.
The volume knob on my MK2 would seldom get past 11:00 o'clock, unless I'm listening to a particularly quiet recording.
I might occasionally "rock out" for a song, or part of a song, with the volume @ 12:00 o'clock.
 
I had little regard for my hearing when I was young - I try not to damage it any further now.


So you would probably not hear as much of a difference at those levels as you are not stressing the amp much.  The SR007 does tend to sound quieter than most other Stax phones because it has less output in the 2-5 kHz "loudness" range compared to most of the others, so that would mean cranking it up a notch or two.  I think there is a mod that would significantly improve the ability of the T1 to drive the 007, but I'm still working on it.
 

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