The Stax Thread III

[Aurosonic]

I've been using a convolution filter in Roon with my SR-007's for a couple weeks now. I much prefer the sound with equalization, and I normally don't like DSP.

 

[elton7033]

Here is the dirty secret I don’t have roon and I am find with the house tuning of the sr007/009 but i guest I should try

 

[6PANDEMONIUM6]

Please don't misunderstand me, I like the 353X a lot for its price but sometime it can be unforgiving as well lacking the detail and extension which other amp can provide. It have a great balance sound but it doesn't bring out particular range like for example make the vocal more up front as well. The 007t will add extra warmth to make everything seems darker but I guess this is like comparing water to wine lol

Well, I've always been of the opinion that amps should sound as neutral as possible but if someone is trying to bring the vocals forward or add a bit of warmth to their headphones that's fine. There is room for both philosophies in this hobby. The 353x could stand to be a touch more detailed though.

Audio is a personal journey either way - science can never tell us what we personally experience. With that being said, I think a dose of healthy skepticism is a good idea when throwing around thousands of dollars. With that being said, the 007 and 009 are truly the end station as far as headphones goes, and so maxing out every single part of the equation makes sense to me. This is equipment you might own for 30+ years. But having been the victim of severe upgraditis, I think its a good idea to take a step back and truly assess what sound differences are available in upgrading an amplifier that already sufficiently powers a pair of, granted, electrostatic headphones.

As you said, it brings out the "general tonality" - in my opinion I think it brings out the exact sound signature, and any changes in signature will surely be completely subjective. Either way you look at it, if he springs for the 007 and 727 and doesn't like the sound signature - it is very likely that a pair of 009s or lambdas will be a better and cheaper remedy than getting the Carbon/BHSE. My evaluation of the 007 (mk1s) were that they are the single most technically impressive headphones I've ever heard - however the sound signature just wasn't for my ears. Not that I didn't like listening to them - I loved it. But it will never have the edge that the lambdas or 009s have. I am sure you can agree that no matter what you plug the 007s to, it will never sound as edgy as a pair of 009s into a solid state. So I guess that is the takeaway here - yes, the 007 are incredible headphones - but they have a different sound signature than other Stax, and if that sound signature isn't for you, spending 6000$ on an amplifier won't change the signature.

Yeah, I really did try to love the 007s. I listened to them on multiple amps too. However, at the end of the day I just prefer the 009s no matter what they're plugged into. I'm planning on getting a set of 009S soon.

 

[chocolates]

I cannot understand why anybody doesnt use EQ to correct sound of any es headphones to your own taste?
It is easy to perform, it is simple to have a ruller-flat response if you use correction from trusted source like that:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h0zyfb49e1yf241/Stax SR-007 mk1.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tfl27gzlf6mzl6/Stax SR-009.pdf?dl=0

ES headphones can be corrected flawlessly becase have almost no distortion throu the spectrum, even at low frequency it is very low. It is much more simple than for dynamic headphones, which have many resonanse issue based fluctuances on FR. Just avoid to made high boost setting - thats all.
Even more you can turn it OFF at any time too.
And it cost almost nothing..

this is the play, though ideally you'd tweak it to your taste - especially bass (oratory mentions this)

unfortunately it's not always feasible to do so, since exclusive mode audio (DSD, tidal MQA, hqplayer, etc..) bypass the windows audio enhancements

 

[6PANDEMONIUM6]

this is the play, though ideally you'd tweak it to your taste - especially bass (oratory mentions this)

unfortunately it's not always feasible to do so, since exclusive mode audio (DSD, tidal MQA, hqplayer, etc..) bypass the windows audio enhancements

Schiit Loki?

 

[JLoud]

I use a Loki with my Raal SR1A. Works well.

 

[astromaddie]

I have a question about the Stax tube amps... how do you know when to change the tubes? Is it purely volume based?

 

[elton7033]

Audio is a personal journey either way - science can never tell us what we personally experience. With that being said, I think a dose of healthy skepticism is a good idea when throwing around thousands of dollars. With that being said, the 007 and 009 are truly the end station as far as headphones goes, and so maxing out every single part of the equation makes sense to me. This is equipment you might own for 30+ years. But having been the victim of severe upgraditis, I think its a good idea to take a step back and truly assess what sound differences are available in upgrading an amplifier that already sufficiently powers a pair of, granted, electrostatic headphones.

As you said, it brings out the "general tonality" - in my opinion I think it brings out the exact sound signature, and any changes in signature will surely be completely subjective. Either way you look at it, if he springs for the 007 and 727 and doesn't like the sound signature - it is very likely that a pair of 009s or lambdas will be a better and cheaper remedy than getting the Carbon/BHSE. My evaluation of the 007 (mk1s) were that they are the single most technically impressive headphones I've ever heard - however the sound signature just wasn't for my ears. Not that I didn't like listening to them - I loved it. But it will never have the edge that the lambdas or 009s have. I am sure you can agree that no matter what you plug the 007s to, it will never sound as edgy as a pair of 009s into a solid state. So I guess that is the takeaway here - yes, the 007 are incredible headphones - but they have a different sound signature than other Stax, and if that sound signature isn't for you, spending 6000$ on an amplifier won't change the signature.

if someone don't like the 007 in general they should forget about the amping problem and just jump towards to the SR009/BK/S or even L700 or get both of them(009+L700) with the price of a Carbon/BHSE.

 

[118900]

Audio is a personal journey either way - science can never tell us what we personally experience. With that being said, I think a dose of healthy skepticism is a good idea when throwing around thousands of dollars. With that being said, the 007 and 009 are truly the end station as far as headphones goes, and so maxing out every single part of the equation makes sense to me. This is equipment you might own for 30+ years. But having been the victim of severe upgraditis, I think its a good idea to take a step back and truly assess what sound differences are available in upgrading an amplifier that already sufficiently powers a pair of, granted, electrostatic headphones.

As you said, it brings out the "general tonality" - in my opinion I think it brings out the exact sound signature, and any changes in signature will surely be completely subjective. Either way you look at it, if he springs for the 007 and 727 and doesn't like the sound signature - it is very likely that a pair of 009s or lambdas will be a better and cheaper remedy than getting the Carbon/BHSE. My evaluation of the 007 (mk1s) were that they are the single most technically impressive headphones I've ever heard - however the sound signature just wasn't for my ears. Not that I didn't like listening to them - I loved it. But it will never have the edge that the lambdas or 009s have. I am sure you can agree that no matter what you plug the 007s to, it will never sound as edgy as a pair of 009s into a solid state. So I guess that is the takeaway here - yes, the 007 are incredible headphones - but they have a different sound signature than other Stax, and if that sound signature isn't for you, spending 6000$ on an amplifier won't change the signature.

I cannot speak from personal experience but from everything I have read here, on other forums and even from spritzer himself changing amplifier for the 007s can make a dramatic difference.

maybe past a certain level, say from KGSSHV to carbon, the law of diminishing returns really starts to bite and the changes are no longer night and day, but in the vast majority of cases I have read about the problem is that some amplifiers simply don’t have the technical capability to run the 007s properly, let alone to their limits, therefore they have a major impact on the sound signature.

If the amplifier is “choking” the HPs too much it will give a false impression of the sound signature of the HPs themselves.

 

[AudioThief]

I cannot speak from personal experience but from everything I have read here, on other forums and even from spritzer himself changing amplifier for the 007s can make a dramatic difference.

maybe past a certain level, say from KGSSHV to carbon, the law of diminishing returns really starts to bite and the changes are no longer night and day, but in the vast majority of cases I have read about the problem is that some amplifiers simply don’t have the technical capability to run the 007s properly, let alone to their limits, therefore they have a major impact on the sound signature.

If the amplifier is “choking” the HPs too much it will give a false impression of the sound signature of the HPs themselves.

Yes, I am aware of the Stax mafia stance on this topic, and I am actively trying to counter act it. Because I believe many people have thrown money at an amplifier to "fix" the 007, when the reality is that the 007 sounds like the 007 out of a 727 or 717. I'm not going to discuss whether or not it sounds "better" or even "different" out of a carbon or bhse, but if an amplifier has enough power to drive the headphone (as is the case with the 727 for the 007), then throwing more power at it won't change the sound signature. If anything, that would only happen at excrutiatingly high volumes - above listening levels in the case of the 727.

So my point is simply that while the Stax mafia may promise gold, glory, the golden pot at the end of the rainbow - the holy grail if you just get the carbon... The reality of the situation is that if you want a different sound... Get a 009 or a lambda. The "technical" aspects of the headphones at this point is so close that sound signature is a lot more important than the difference in "detail".

Remember, we can always imagine our headphones sounding better or different. The guys who have a Carbon start thinking about getting a T2 DIY because then that becomes the holy grail and so on. Its a dangerous addiciton that in my eyes is not based in reality. A 007 + 727 is a fantastic combination for those who like a full bodied, relaxed presentation that is great for long listening sessions and a wide range of music. For those who wants to listen to music more "bent forward" in their seat, the 009s or lambdas will be a better fit. No matter what amp you throw at the 007.

 

[buzzlulu]

I guess it all boils down to what you like. I did not like a demo pair of 007's which I recently had - even when played with my Carbon.

 

[118900]

I guess it all boils down to what you like. I did not like a demo pair of 007's which I recently had - even when played with my Carbon.

What I am saying is that if you listen to the 007s from an amplifier capable of driving them and you don’t like the sound signature, that is one thing.

but that isn’t the same as not liking the sound signature because they aren’t powered properly and therefore the effect is conditioned by the amplifier and not the HPs themselves.

You wouldn’t judge the handling of a thorough-bred sports car on a track using utilitarian car tyres (which isn’t the case you mention, but just to better explain what I meant).

 

[Tugbars]

some people write too many words for "I can't justify paying 5k$ for an amp" Some headphones are asking for a lot of clean power, that doesn't have anything to do with whether you like those headphones or not. Because 007 asks a lot of power, It doesn't mean that I'd upgrade my Carbon to T2 next month too. Don't think we are happy because we had to pay 5k$ for an amp to make our headphones sound right. I wish they'd sound right with 727A too. They just don't. 007's just sound wrong with 727A or 717 or 007t in average listening volumes. Or better to say: There are better headphones out there which sound better and cheaper than 007 If you'll pair it with 727A. A lot of people who have Carbon here confirmed that, I experienced that too. Denying these facts may confuse people who are reading this forum and then they'll buy 2100$ headphones, pay 2500$ or whatever for 727A and they might not like that combo in the end and waste a lot of money. Also you don't have to pay 5k$ or 6k$ for Carbon, You can buy a DIY carbon for 2500-3000$ from EU or Hong Kong, they sound just right. Second hands go for even cheaper. Mjolnir Carbon is slightly more detailed, less harsh and have better midrange-treble tonality aka less bright.

That's how It looks like inside. This particular one uses KG 0.64 boards If I recall right.

If you are curious why electrostatic headphones need huge amps and some ask for a lot of power, there is a fantastic article written by JimL in that "other forum". Title is: "Output Stage Current Requirements for Electrostatic Headphone Amps" Enjoy.

 

[118900]

Yes, I am aware of the Stax mafia stance on this topic, and I am actively trying to counter act it. Because I believe many people have thrown money at an amplifier to "fix" the 007, when the reality is that the 007 sounds like the 007 out of a 727 or 717. I'm not going to discuss whether or not it sounds "better" or even "different" out of a carbon or bhse, but if an amplifier has enough power to drive the headphone (as is the case with the 727 for the 007), then throwing more power at it won't change the sound signature. If anything, that would only happen at excrutiatingly high volumes - above listening levels in the case of the 727.

So my point is simply that while the Stax mafia may promise gold, glory, the golden pot at the end of the rainbow - the holy grail if you just get the carbon... The reality of the situation is that if you want a different sound... Get a 009 or a lambda. The "technical" aspects of the headphones at this point is so close that sound signature is a lot more important than the difference in "detail".

Remember, we can always imagine our headphones sounding better or different. The guys who have a Carbon start thinking about getting a T2 DIY because then that becomes the holy grail and so on. Its a dangerous addiciton that in my eyes is not based in reality. A 007 + 727 is a fantastic combination for those who like a full bodied, relaxed presentation that is great for long listening sessions and a wide range of music. For those who wants to listen to music more "bent forward" in their seat, the 009s or lambdas will be a better fit. No matter what amp you throw at the 007.

Again I cannot comment from experience but I have read (for the past 15 odd years) that the original Omegas and their replacements have always had difficulties in being driven correctly and that the 717 and some others (without adequate CCS modification) are merely an acceptable start (hence the development of the original Stax T2).

as I mentioned in another post i think an analogy would be that driving the 007s is akin to driving a Ferrari. Once you reach the correct tyre size, different compounds and brands can give different results and feels but they all “work” whereas using tyres that are far too small/narrow will allow you to drive the car but it will be far from reaching its full potential or handling as it should at the extremes.

If and when I upgrade from my set up I will be more than glad to give my own first-hand impressions

 

[118900]

some people write too many words for "I can't justify paying 5k$ for an amp" Some headphones are asking for a lot of clean power, that doesn't have anything to do with whether you like those headphones or not. Because 007 asks a lot of power, It doesn't mean that I'd upgrade my Carbon to T2 next month too. Don't think we are happy because we had to pay 5k$ for an amp to make our headphones sound right. I wish they'd sound right with 727A too. They just don't. 007's just sound wrong with 727A or 717 or 007t in average listening volumes. Or better to say: There are better headphones out there which sound better and cheaper than 007 If you'll pair it with 727A. A lot of people who have Carbon here confirmed that, I experienced that too. Denying these facts may confuse people who are reading this forum and then they'll buy 2100$ headphones, pay 2500$ or whatever for 727A and they might not like that combo in the end and waste a lot of money. Also you don't have to pay 5k$ or 6k$ for Carbon, You can buy a DIY carbon for 2500-3000$ from EU or Hong Kong, they sound just right. Second hands go for even cheaper. Mjolnir Carbon is slightly more detailed, less harsh and have better midrange-treble tonality aka less bright.

That's how It looks like inside. This particular one uses KG 0.64 boards If I recall right.

Your experience matches what I have heard/read over the years.