[Illah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nogrot /img/forum/go_quote.gif when did the sopranos (try to) turn into an arthouse television show? answer: sometime after season 2...

It's always been art house. It's considered one of the best shows in the history of TV not because of gangland murders, but because of the writing. It's amazingly well written and layered so that the 'boring' episodes are actually full of innuendo and symbolism. This last episode was one of the most symbolic.

I thought it was a great ending. If you were expecting a neat little Hollywood wrap up where everything is just fine or Tony goes down in a blaze of gunfire then *that* would have been a cheesy ending.

A show like this requires one to read between the lines quite a bit. The whole point is that this isn't the 'end', it's just the end of the show. Their lives will go on. Dealing with the threat of death and everything falling apart at any instant is just life to these people - it's not a life changing event. As crazy as it seems to be hunted, people like Tony feel that way every day.

This last episode was basically putting you, the viewer, in Tony's head. The inward paranoia coupled with outward confidence. The concern he feels for his family. The front of confidence mixed with the knowledge that in his world power is held loosely, all you need is one guy to go behind your back. And despite everything, he doesn't really change. The therapy, the gunshot, etc. In the end he's basically the same.

There were also subtle things, like Paulie tanning in front of Satriale's with the cat standing around (a representation of Christopher) showing how despite everything, they never really change (it mimics a scene from very early on in the series).

Then some have commented that maybe he *was* shot. The convo between Tony and Bobby where they say, "Maybe when it happens you don't even see it, it all just goes black."

Or perhaps it's symbolic of our viewership, that when the end happens we don't even see it - it all just goes black.

I personally feel that the end basically shows the futility of his life. The talk about him getting indicted by the feds, the one guy testifying, the potential of death. It's a dead end life, and in the end all the material success is worthless when the one thing that really matters is lost - his family.

--Illah

 

[Illah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ham Radio Nut /img/forum/go_quote.gif 'The Sopranos' is a HUUUUGE moneymaking enterprise, that employs many. Thus, the ending did not surprise me in the least. They left many possibilities 'open'. A movie, perhaps another future season, a television series, etc. It's a money world!

Regarding the whole movie therory, *please* do some homework first

Chase originally wanted this to be a one season show. Every season since then has required HBO to practically bribe him into doing it. He's wanted to end this show for years. Why would he do a movie?

The open ending is the genius of the writing. We all have our own ideas, and anything could have happened. For all we know a musical started seconds later and they were dancing on the tables. We'll never know. When the end happens, you don't even see it

Don't take things to literally with this show, the writers are too smart for that.

--Illah

 

[blessingx]

Well I've already said I thought the nebulous ending a way too safe wrapping up.

But for those earlier in the thread discussing the signs of a hit (sure the episode title and one patrons hat, the Godfather reference to the bathroom, etc.) where exactly is this mysterious Meadow look? I've seen the ending three times now and it's simply not there. As for the theory of inhabiting Tonys head (not the episode, not even the final scene - he is outside too?, but a few shots), is that enough? He fears getting hit? That's the end?

 

[Solitary1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illah /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's always been art house. It's considered one of the best shows in the history of TV not because of gangland murders, but because of the writing. It's amazingly well written and layered so that the 'boring' episodes are actually full of innuendo and symbolism. This last episode was one of the most symbolic. I thought it was a great ending. If you were expecting a neat little Hollywood wrap up where everything is just fine or Tony goes down in a blaze of gunfire then *that* would have been a cheesy ending. A show like this requires one to read between the lines quite a bit. The whole point is that this isn't the 'end', it's just the end of the show. Their lives will go on. Dealing with the threat of death and everything falling apart at any instant is just life to these people - it's not a life changing event. As crazy as it seems to be hunted, people like Tony feel that way every day. This last episode was basically putting you, the viewer, in Tony's head. The inward paranoia coupled with outward confidence. The concern he feels for his family. The front of confidence mixed with the knowledge that in his world power is held loosely, all you need is one guy to go behind your back. And despite everything, he doesn't really change. The therapy, the gunshot, etc. In the end he's basically the same. There were also subtle things, like Paulie tanning in front of Satriale's with the cat standing around (a representation of Christopher) showing how despite everything, they never really change (it mimics a scene from very early on in the series). Then some have commented that maybe he *was* shot. The convo between Tony and Bobby where they say, "Maybe when it happens you don't even see it, it all just goes black." Or perhaps it's symbolic of our viewership, that when the end happens we don't even see it - it all just goes black. I personally feel that the end basically shows the futility of his life. The talk about him getting indicted by the feds, the one guy testifying, the potential of death. It's a dead end life, and in the end all the material success is worthless when the one thing that really matters is lost - his family. --Illah

Well put. The ending still sucks IMHO.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

Regarding the whole movie therory, *please* do some homework first Chase originally wanted this to be a one season show. Every season since then has required HBO to practically bribe him into doing it. He's wanted to end this show for years. Why would he do a movie?

Probably for the same reason he agreed to do all those extra seasons. Somebody obviously made him an offer he couldn't refuse....more than once.

 

[wafflesomd]

My final thought:

The ending was awsome, it was so brilliant.

I sat on the edge of my seat waiting to see what would happen.

#1: Thought Meadow's car would get hit
#2: Thought Meadow would get hit by a car while she was running across the road
#3: Thought the two guy's who walked in were going to get Tony
#4: Thought the guy at the bar was going to get Tony

 

[Morph201]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wafflesomd /img/forum/go_quote.gif My final thought: The ending was awsome, it was so brilliant. I sat on the edge of my seat waiting to see what would happen. #1: Thought Meadow's car would get hit #2: Thought Meadow would get hit by a car while she was running across the road #3: Thought the two guy's who walked in were going to get Tony #4: Thought the guy at the bar was going to get Tony

Ok, and why exactly do those 4 points make it awesome\brilliant?? Something I'm missing here?

 

[DLeeWebb]

They're saying some interesting things over at The Sopranos forum at HBO...

http://boards.hbo.com/thread.jspa?th...=1181566638975

 

[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif .... like this season's brief focus on Tony's gambling losses. It had me thinking that that the gambling debts were going to somehow lead to Tony's demise, when suddenly on a dime, it turned out to be a complete non-issue.

I don't think it was a non-issue. Part of gambling's sickness is the feeling that a gambler gets when he loses. When Tony and his illicit vixen take peyote, they go down to the roulette table and he wins a huge amount of money, and even though he's tripping, he's amazed by it.
I think that cured his illness, because the thrill was gone. The thrill of losing money, depression, lack of self esteem. He met Jim Morrison in the desert and no longer needed to gamble.

 

[wafflesomd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morph201 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, and why exactly do those 4 points make it awesome\brilliant?? Something I'm missing here?

Yah, your missing something, mostly the fact that it's my opinion.

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wafflesomd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yah, your missing something, mostly the fact that it's my opinion.

Errr okay, interesting use of language, but why do those four points, in your opinion, add up to being awsome [sic] and brilliant?

 

[Illah]

Here's a clip of an article from the AP that elaborates on my thoughts. BTW I went to art school and majored in motion pictures and TV so perhaps that why I agree with critics and the like

Quote:

"In our popular culture, we've come to expect things to get tied up neatly," said Jerry Herron, a professor at Wayne State University in Michigan, who found the ending brilliant. "The claim that Chase is making as an artist here is, real life doesn't have neat endings. "You want Tony blown away? You want him in jail? Chase is saying, 'Fine, you write that script,'" Herron said. "He's saying that life goes on, and art goes on, and he's just going to end it right here." Brilliant wasn't a good enough word for screenwriting professor Richard Walter, of the UCLA Film School, to describe Sunday night's finale. "That's too tame," he said. "This was genius!" "Sure, I was frustrated," Walter said of the final cut-to-black as Journey's "Don't Stop Believing" played on the jukebox. "But you don't want everything tied up with a neat ribbon on it. I don't know what's going to happen in MY life. Do you know what's going to happen in yours?"

Great way of elaborating on my thoughts. I get the feeling that most people looking for the traditional 'ending' are kind of missing the point. The show in some ways never had a 'beginning' either. The DiMeo crime family had been around for nearly 50 years when the show began, and it will continue after Tony's time at the top.

Hollywood and most TV shows are *extremely* formulaic, even great stories like Lord of the Rings and The Matrix basically follow Campbell's 'Hero Journey' step by step. I'm being completely serious when I say that 95% of all film and TV follows this basic story arc in some way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Where 'The Sopranos' really broke ground was the way it largely ignored the classic arc. Things don't change. Things don't get much better or worse. There's good times and lucky breaks, there's bad times and hard knocks. There's isn't some huge fight-to-the-finish, either physically or mentally. There's no 'cure' or 'ending'. Things just are.

But at the same time, this is a show about the mob - big macho guys shooting each other and getting money and women. I always segment out Sopranos viewers to those who expect an 85 hours 'Goodfellas' and those who are more into the writing and existentialism.

And really, what would have been a good ending? If he was shot would it make it better? Or if he went to jail? Or if he turned rat? There really is no good ending, and Chase remarked in interviews that he wanted to avoid the classic 'rise and fall' mob story (a variation of the Hero's Journey). He stayed true to that vision, and in doing so avoided the potentially cookie-cutter ending that I was dreading.

--Illah

 

[Solitary1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wafflesomd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yah, your missing something, mostly the fact that it's my opinion.

Well, yeah, it's ALL our opinions. You still didn't answer the question.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

I don't think it was a non-issue. Part of gambling's sickness is the feeling that a gambler gets when he loses. When Tony and his illicit vixen take peyote, they go down to the roulette table and he wins a huge amount of money, and even though he's tripping, he's amazed by it. I think that cured his illness, because the thrill was gone. The thrill of losing money, depression, lack of self esteem. He met Jim Morrison in the desert and no longer needed to gamble.

I didn't see anything that would indicate Tony lost his desire/need to gamble after the peyote incident. What I saw was simply that his luck had changed ... that was the big revelation he had during the sunset. At least that's how I saw it. He continues to gamble. Near the start of the episode following the peyote episode, someone hands him a fat envelope and mentions he did very well on some bet....which puts a big grin on his face and confirms the fact that he was still gambling and that his losing streak had ended. In the final episode he mentions to Paulie, when they were sitting in front of the butcher shop talking about superstition and the cat, that his gambling luck "did a complete 180" after Christopher died.

I was talking about how the gambling losses were hurting him financially, which seemed to be causing him and those around him a lot of stress. That subplot was also leading us to believe he might even murder his old Jewish buddy, rather than have to pay him back....but in the end, Tony came up with the money, paid it all back, and suddenly that sub-plot and all the tension that had built up around it was over.

 

[wafflesomd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, yeah, it's ALL our opinions. You still didn't answer the question.

Because they were all possible factors of what some ppl thought happened.

I must be popular, everyone wants to know what I'm thinking