[Wmcmanus]

No offense, anyone, but I find these arguments to be rather pedantic. Not that I know a whole lot about the subject (and practically zero from anything that could even remotely be considered a technical perspective). But it seems to me that if there is indeed a 'distinction' between long and short cables, it would represent a distinction without a difference.

Or at least it would not make any difference that we mere humans being could actually pick up on. Here, I'm assuming that the cables would be of a reasonable length that an audiophile would actually use (i.e., I'm not talking about comparing a 600 foot cable to a 3 inch cable). What I'm getting at is that although there may be a theoretical advantage to using shorter cables, in practical reality, very few (if any) of us would be able to consistently identify which cable (short or long) is which (assuming that they are identical cables otherwise and are teminated in the same way).

Thus, my conclusion is: ya, but so what? Who cares, from a listening perspective? Maybe I'm missing something but I've seen this same issue discussed countless times and I've yet to encounter a solid argument that I should be concerned whether I use my 7 meter Sonic Horizons Hurricane headphone extention cable, or my identical 4 meter cable. When I need one, I just grab whichever is nearest to me and don't think twice about it.

 

[ev13wt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thus, my conclusion is: ya, but so what? Who cares, from a listening perspective? Maybe I'm missing something but I've seen this same issue discussed countless times and I've yet to encounter a solid argument that I should be concerned whether I use my 7 meter Sonic Horizons Hurricane headphone extention cable, or my identical 4 meter cable. When I need one, I just grab whichever is nearest to me and don't think twice about it.

So 7 meters against 1 inch - is there a difference you can hear?

 

[bhd812]

i use a 20ft balanced cardas for my senn's, compared it to a 6 foot and didnt hear nothing. unless your going to do a cable run of 200+ feet then you dont need to worry about it, esp if your in balanced.

 

[ev13wt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif the imod tiny however is my own imagination... vinnie is creative and a genius, but alas... i think that is impossible. i do use my shuffle with my supermicro though and it is a great pair.

Care to explain the imod tiny or is there a thread? Also supermicro looks like a friend! Dual mono style bling and everything!

Complete and utter addiction took about 4 days... Its 4:15am local time. No I didn't sleep and get up early...


Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 /img/forum/go_quote.gif i use a 20ft balanced cardas for my senn's, compared it to a 6 foot and didnt hear nothing. unless your going to do a cable run of 200+ feet then you dont need to worry about it, esp if your in balanced.

That is what I wanted to hear.

 

[cotdt]

yes, but in extreme cases, say your cable is 1000 miles long, then it would matter. the different frequencies in the cable would travel at different speeds since they are electromagnetic waves. so the sound you hear would be all distorted and such.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ev13wt /img/forum/go_quote.gif So 7 meters against 1 inch - is there a difference you can hear?

Don't know. Never tried it, but I'd imagine that the market for a 1 inch headphone extension cable would be rather limited. Don't you? I've done comparisons (on several occasions and on several different systems) between a 7 meter and 4 meter cables and can hear absolutely no differences.

Although I'm certainly not a "golden ears" type (and would never pretend to be), I've done my fair share of headphone listening over the years and have no problems in identifying differences between various headphone cables (e.g., Zu Mobius, Moon Audio Silver Dragon, Equinox, etc.), as well as sources, amps, and headphones themselves (obviously). But when I'm comparing identical cables of different length, I can't pick up on any audible differences. I strongly suspect that I'm not alone in this regard. I've never met anyone who's ears are that good!

Again, I'm talking about comparisons that are real, not just theoretical. That was my whole point. If you want to compare a 600 foot cable to a 3 inch cable, be my guest. I'm not trying to pick on you or anyone else, and we're all entitled to our opinions. My opinion is that if there is a 'distinction' it makes no difference that we humans can pick up on, at least not when comparing cables of the types of lengths that we would actually be using.

In my case, I've also got 1 meter, 1.5 meter, 2 meter and 2.5 meter lengths of identical interconnects (Virtual Dynamics Nite II). I use them all interchangably, and basically put them where they are most needed without any concern for the impact that the length will have on sound quality. That was my point.

I'm not saying that, in theory, there can be no difference in sound quality no matter how extreme we define our "long" and "short" lengths to be. Indeed, I'll even concede that there may well be a theoretical difference that perhaps 1 person on this planet could pick up on between a 1 meter and a 2.5 meter cable.

What I am suggesting, however, is that as a practical matter, cable length makes zero difference to an audiophile among the choices that he or she would be facing when putting together a system. If you think you might need an extra meter at some point in the future, then buy the longer cable and don't worry about the impact it will have on sound quality, because the answer (in the real world) will always be zero.

 

[Balisarda]

Hugh Robjohns has this to say in his article "Understanding Impedance" from the magazine Sound on Sound:

"In general, amplifiers are designed to have an extremely low output impedance (usually fractions of Ohms) so that the loudspeaker impedance is significantly higher. However, the impedance of the connecting cable can also have an audible effect on the sound quality. For example, the dreaded 'bell flex' so often used with cheap and cheerful systems presents a relatively high resistance and, since it is in series with the loudspeaker, a portion of the amplifier's energy will be dissipated simply in heating the wire. The cable resistance may also interact with the crossover's characteristics.

"There is a great deal of black magic associated with speaker cables (and line-level interconnects for that matter) by the hi-fi press, most of which, in my opinion at any rate, is complete hogwash. Nothing more than common sense and sensibly engineered equipment is required. By using good-quality, thick cables which are terminated properly, the cable resistance will be sufficiently low to become as irrelevant as the capacitance. While there are plenty of good, high-quality speaker cables available, heavy-duty two-core mains cable is just as good in almost every situation, and considerably cheaper!"

Blue Jeans Cable has numerous cable-related articles posted. One says this:

"In general, a cable does three important things to a signal: it (1) attenuates the signal, (2) contributes its own inductive and capacitive reactance, which can alter different parts of the signal differently--of particular importance, attenuating some frequencies, such as high audio notes, more than it attenuates others--and (3) exposes the signal to electromagnetic energy from other sources which can enter the cable and pollute the signal with noise."

Another part of the Blue Jeans Cable website explains this:

"Speaker cable is a bit different from a lot of the interconnect cables we handle, in several respects. Because speakers are driven at low impedance (typically 4 or 8 ohms) and high current, speaker cables are, for all practical purposes, immune from interference from EMI or RFI, so shielding isn't required. The low impedance of the circuit also tips the balance of concern from capacitance, which is important in interconnect use, to inductance, which, while a concern, can be controlled only to a limited degree. The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; the lower the resistance of the cable, the lower the contribution of the speaker cable's resistance to the damping factor, and the flatter the frequency response will be. While one can spend thousands of dollars on exotic speaker cable, in the end analysis, it's the sheer conductivity of the cable, and (barring a really odd design, which may introduce various undesirable effects) little else that matters. The answer to keeping conductivity high is simple: the larger the wire, the lower the resistance, and the higher the conductivity."

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes, but in extreme cases, say your cable is 1000 miles long, then it would matter. the different frequencies in the cable would travel at different speeds since they are electromagnetic waves. so the sound you hear would be all distorted and such.

I'll keep that in mind in the event that I ever want to listen to one of my rigs that is located in Cayman while I'm in the States. Bad idea, you're saying. Right?

 

[cotdt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balisarda /img/forum/go_quote.gif "Speaker cable is a bit different from a lot of the interconnect cables we handle, in several respects. Because speakers are driven at low impedance (typically 4 or 8 ohms) and high current, speaker cables are, for all practical purposes, immune from interference from EMI or RFI, so shielding isn't required. The low impedance of the circuit also tips the balance of concern from capacitance, which is important in interconnect use, to inductance, which, while a concern, can be controlled only to a limited degree. The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; the lower the resistance of the cable, the lower the contribution of the speaker cable's resistance to the damping factor, and the flatter the frequency response will be. While one can spend thousands of dollars on exotic speaker cable, in the end analysis, it's the sheer conductivity of the cable, and (barring a really odd design, which may introduce various undesirable effects) little else that matters. The answer to keeping conductivity high is simple: the larger the wire, the lower the resistance, and the higher the conductivity."

Very true... however... headphones are not 4 ohms but 600 ohms, so L and C would play a larger factor.

 

[Jenkins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ev13wt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well? A cable is basically a resistor, right? So I understand changing it alters, changes the sound sig of cans. So the shorter the cable, the purer the sound "should" be. Right?

Hence, my idea of a truly good cable:

and:

 

[cotdt]

erm... what if those short by accident? electrical conduction happens at the very surface of the conductor, so it's better to have several smaller wires than a single solid wire. small tubes would be even better.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif No offense, anyone, but I find these arguments to be rather pedantic. Not that I know a whole lot about the subject (and practically zero from anything that could even remotely be considered a technical perspective). But it seems to me that if there is indeed a 'distinction' between long and short cables, it would represent a distinction without a difference.

Yes -- there is a difference from different lenghts. I have two pairs of cables with different lengths -- 20 and 35 cm --, and the shorter versions sound a tad clearer.

It's still not clear what physical properties make the sonic difference in cables, but given the experienced and pretended colorations/alterations, the longer the cable, the more of it. And after all a shorter cable makes for drastically reduced capacitance. BTW, shielding -- commonly seen as a good thing -- increases capacitance as well. On the other hand, resistance plays virtually no role in interconnects, in view of the load impedances in the thousands of ohms.
.

 

[Jenkins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif erm... what if those short by accident? electrical conduction happens at the very surface of the conductor

The wire I use are from a Mundorf coil, so they are lacquered.
And no; I'm not in search of easy short circuiting or dangerousness.

I must confess; the Nordost Red Dawn and Paul Speltz AntiCable I have are humiliated by my own cable.

 

[Emon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif electrical conduction happens at the very surface of the conductor

The skin effect only happens when dealing with frequencies much higher than that found in audio. It's so minimal that the resistance added isn't significant.

Audio signals aren't as picky as many believe. As long as the cable doesn't introduce a significant amount of resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc, it's fine. For most things, cheap RadioShack cables will work fine. They'll work fine until they fall apart, anyways.

Seriously. A 10 foot cable at 26 awg will introduce 0.4 ohms into the circuit. It's a non-issue.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon /img/forum/go_quote.gif The skin effect only happens when dealing with frequencies much higher than that found in audio. It's so minimal that the resistance added isn't significant. Audio signals aren't as picky as many believe. As long as the cable doesn't introduce a significant amount of resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc, it's fine. For most things, cheap RadioShack cables will work fine. They'll work fine until they fall apart, anyways. Seriously. A 10 foot cable at 26 awg will introduce 0.4 ohms into the circuit. It's a non-issue.

I dispute everything. Not true in my experience.
.