[Music Alchemist]

It could also be noted that many audiophiles believe that headphones will scale massively when hooked up to the correct gear. You get a lot of different information from a lot of different people. If you don't agree that a 50k setup vs 50k setup is a fair comparison then we can agree to disagree, but the fact that you can't plug the 1060 into anything else or plug any other headphones into the rest of the orpheus system makes it impossible to compare headphone to headphone with all other variables eliminated. Perhaps Sennheiser did this on purpose? MY million dollar question is, you have that sum of money to spend, is the orpheus clearly the best option, or just one of many alternate options.

I just wonder how much more is possible from headphones that hasn't already been achieved. If they have to resort to doing weird stuff like having amps in the earcups and and setting in concrete the combination of gear that must be used, we must be pretty close to the ceiling of what's possible from more flexible options.

 
I agree with you on the following point: If you were planning on spending $55K (or whatever) on a headphone system, your proposed comparison would be a good way to go about it in terms of determining what you like more. However, in itself, such an endeavor could be misleading. Although I don't always agree with them, the "objectivists" will tell you that things like high-end DACs, cables, etc. can't and won't improve the sound in the first place, and that it is merely the placebo effect at work. Either way, it's crucially important to test everything you can to make sure that the things you believe are making an improvement truly are. If you really want to test the capabilities of a headphone, it shouldn't be approached casually.
 
But anyway, it's more likely that neither of us will bother doing a comparison like this. You'll keep your Abyss, I'll buy the HE 1060, and we'll both live happily ever after. ^‿^

 

[Ali-Pacha]

Perhaps Sennheiser did this on purpose? 

I think so, both for technical reasons (this cable capacitance thing) and political reasons (no third party amplifiers).
Until we have more infos about mosfet's behaviour within the earcups and some other technical datas (bias, Vpp, gap), and since I'm always cautious with hyperbolic / enthusiastic feedbacks, we can only speculate. Sure, they will be on the top of the hill. Compared to well-amped Orpheus 1 / Abyss / HE-1000 / SR-009 / HD800, where do they stand ? Time will tell 

Ali

 

[mulder01]

  You'll keep your Abyss, I'll buy the HE 1060, and we'll both live happily ever after. ^‿^

 
Ambitious as ever I see
 
I think even if I won 2 million dollars tomorrow, I couldn't bring myself to spend 50 thousand euro on head fi (probably closer to $80-90k AUD by the time you do the currency conversion, then add GST and import taxes)... Still interested to know what's what though.

 

[up late]

Well, I consider a fair contest to be between systems of the same value.  All we know so far is that it bests setups that cost a fraction of it's price, (no surprises there,) but if you could compare it to equally priced systems, would it still come out on top, or is it on par, or maybe it doesn't stack up, and you're just paying a premium for the aesthetics and privelage of owning of a statement piece.  

But yes, in the real world, like you say, if you have oodles of cash to spend on anything you want, then you will just buy whatever you like the best regardless of cost.  But that's a personal choice that's not really relevant to an apples for apples comparison.

i'm puzzled as to why you're still pursuing this line of argument when you think that you'll never get to listen to the new orpheus, let alone compare it to a headphone rig of similar dollar value. are you going to rely on the subjective opinions of others who can? how would that help you to form your own opinion?

It could also be noted that many audiophiles believe that headphones will scale massively when hooked up to the correct gear. You get a lot of different information from a lot of different people. If you don't agree that a 50k setup vs 50k setup is a fair comparison then we can agree to disagree, but the fact that you can't plug the 1060 into anything else or plug any other headphones into the rest of the orpheus system makes it impossible to compare headphone to headphone with all other variables eliminated. Perhaps Sennheiser did this on purpose? MY million dollar question is, you have that sum of money to spend, is the orpheus clearly the best option, or just one of many alternate options.

I just wonder how much more is possible from headphones that hasn't already been achieved. If they have to resort to doing weird stuff like having amps in the earcups and and setting in concrete the combination of gear that must be used, we must be pretty close to the ceiling of what's possible from more flexible options.

and it should also be noted that there are many audio enthusiasts who don't share that view and are sceptical of it. you're also making the mistake again of equating price with performance. the price of an audio component doesn't determine how well it performs technically or that you will like it. it's audiophoolery to assume that a more expensive audio component will always outperform or sound better to you than a cheaper one. dr sean olive has been quietly debunking that audiophile myth for years through his extensive research at harman international using blind testing.

there are numerous variables involved in comparing headphones and ancillary gear. you are far more likely to compare "apples with oranges" rather than "apples with apples" in real world auditions and comparisons. comparing two similarly priced but different headphone rigs won't create a level playing field or eliminate those variables. the orpheus is a unique integrated headphone system and any comparison with a similarly priced headphone rig will be more akin to an "apples with oranges" comparison.

your million dollar question can't be answered in any objective sense. as you said in an earlier post - "i'm tipping it will boil down to a matter of taste anyway", and you'd probably be right. you also appear dismissive of sennheiser's "weird stuff" proprietary technology and seem to regard the integrated design approach as a limitation, when it might have distinct technical advantages over modular systems incorporating components from different manufacturers. and that just might translate into a superior headphone experience. again, you would have to experience it yourself in order to come to your own conclusion - just as you did with the abyss.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Ambitious as ever I see
 
I think even if I won 2 million dollars tomorrow, I couldn't bring myself to spend 50 thousand euro on head fi (probably closer to $80-90k AUD by the time you do the currency conversion, then add GST and import taxes)... Still interested to know what's what though.

 
The more I think about how room treatments alone for a high-end speaker system can exceed $100K, the more the new Orpheus system seems like a decent deal in the context of ultimate performance. I'm sure you've seen my posts about how I prefer headphones anyway.
 
As for extra fees...it would be wayyy cheaper to just move to the US or something, since we don't have those. hehe

 

[up late]

I think even if I won 2 million dollars tomorrow, I couldn't bring myself to spend 50 thousand euro on head fi (probably closer to $80-90k AUD by the time you do the currency conversion, then add GST and import taxes)... Still interested to know what's what though.

but you thought nothing of spending more than 5k of your hard-earned on a can that didn't come with a dac or an amp? i mean it's all relative when you enter summit-fi isn't it? price/performance ratios don't apply here and diminishing returns are a given. "if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it" - the folks who don't have to ask are sennheiser's target market for the new orpheus.

 

[edstrelow]

I just wonder how much more is possible from headphones that hasn't already been achieved. If they have to resort to doing weird stuff like having amps in the earcups and and setting in concrete the combination of gear that must be used, we must be pretty close to the ceiling of what's possible from more flexible options.

 
 
Quite a lot actually and not at great expense either.
 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials
 
Many of us who have tried sorbothane damping find the effects large and obvious.  I was surprised to discover this effect and even more surprised to find virtually no discussion of the problems caused by vibrational energy in headphone earcups.   Contemporary thinking seems to be that headphone quality is all about the drivers.  Certainly that is a key factor but not the only one. 
 
I don't know if  Sennheiser dealt with this problem in their new flagship.  Some of their discussion of the HD800 indicated that they were using  visco elastic damping in the headband.  But given the number of people modifying the HD800   http://www.head-fi.org/t/700953/saa-hd-800-modification   I suspect even that did not complete the task.  . But I see no mention of this issue in the new electrostatic unit.   If  Sennheiser didn't solve the damping issue, in the new Sennheiser, it  is already obsolete.. 

 

[Sal1950]

   
 
Quite a lot actually and not at great expense either.
 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-sorbothane-and-other-materials
 
Many of us who have tried sorbothane damping find the effects large and obvious.  I was surprised to discover this effect and even more surprised to find virtually no discussion of the problems caused by vibrational energy in headphone earcups.   Contemporary thinking seems to be that headphone quality is all about the drivers.  Certainly that is a key factor but not the only one. 
 
I don't know if  Sennheiser dealt with this problem in their new flagship.  Some of their discussion of the HD800 indicated that they were using  visco elastic damping in the headband.  But given the number of people modifying the HD800   http://www.head-fi.org/t/700953/saa-hd-800-modification   I suspect even that did not complete the task.  . But I see no mention of this issue in the new electrostatic unit.   If  Sennheiser didn't solve the damping issue, in the new Sennheiser, it  is already obsolete.. 

People love to tinker and tweak, and naturally they find the results of their tinkering to bring positive results.
The engineers at the major manufacturers are among the best in the industry. Do you believe that the use of some simple dampening material inside the cups or on the headband is something they would miss or ignore? These engineering approaches have been the focus of design for many years with good results.

 

[edstrelow]

  People love to tinker and tweak, and naturally they find the results of their tinkering to bring positive results.
The engineers at the major manufacturers are among the best in the industry. Do you believe that the use of some simple dampening material inside the cups or on the headband is something they would miss or ignore? These engineering approaches have been the focus of design for many years with good results.

You display a naive faith about  the quality of industrial research. Business' first objective is to make money for the shareholders and not to make the best product there is.
 
Try the mod before you denigrate it. It is cheap, fairly easy to do and reversible. Of course if you would rather just  hand out gobs of money to The Business that is your right. 

 

[Sal1950]

  You display a naive faith about  the quality of industrial research. Business' first objective is to make money for the shareholders and not to make the best product there is.
 
Try the mod before you denigrate it. It is cheap, fairly easy to do and reversible. Of course if you would rather just  hand out gobs of money to The Business that is your right. 

Oh you'll get an argument with me on that one bud. I would say you display a naive faith in the paraniod negaitve attitude toward big business. Yes they need to make money to stay in business but for many the path to that is pathed by offering the best products in their catagory. No thanks I'm not going to start hacking into my HD 650s, your more than well to do to yours any way that makes you happy. I'll close my feelings on the subject by quoting a line from Tyll Hertsens in his first Sennheiser Orpheus post.
 
"These are arguably the world's best headphone engineers who are passionate about their work. They thought they could do better than the old Orpheus. Their management is passionate about cultivating the passion of their engineers. So they let them have at it. This is their released expression of passion and expertise. It is an example of something extremely rare: a company doing something fabulous just for the sake of the fabulousness itself. We headphone enthusiasts should wallow in the satisfaction that Sennheiser is able to, and does, express headphone"
Read more at http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/sennheiser-passion-and-orpheus-he1060hev1060#B5vt0wsLFQVWXm8l.99

 

[Music Alchemist]

The benefits of mechanical resonance damping are well-documented and irrefutable. Just because a headphone company doesn't bother to implement the best damping doesn't mean you shouldn't try it yourself. As with many modifications, you can improve the sound of just about any headphone with it.

 

[mulder01]

your million dollar question can't be answered in any objective sense. as you said in an earlier post - "i'm tipping it will boil down to a matter of taste anyway", and you'd probably be right. you also appear dismissive of sennheiser's "weird stuff" proprietary technology and seem to regard the integrated design approach as a limitation, when it might have distinct technical advantages over modular systems incorporating components from different manufacturers. and that just might translate into a superior headphone experience. again, you would have to experience it yourself in order to come to your own conclusion - just as you did with the abyss.

 
I'm not saying that it's a bad idea for Sennheiser to have a set-in-stone (literally) combination of gear, I'm saying that's likely a big contributor to why these headphones have been recieved so well.  Everyone knows that the right choice of gear and good synergy between components is very important, so it looks as though they have just found the best combination possible, and made it so you can ONLY listen to the 1060's on that gear and made sure people can ONLY audition them in absolutely ideal conditions.  Which seems a bit paranoid and protective.  Every other manufacturer out there will just release their components out into the world, and most people will get to try A combination of gear at a meet or show or other non-ideal situation and be judged from that.  
 
I know what you're saying about an apples for oranges comparison, but since Sennheiser has made it impossible to directly compare headphone to headphone and amp to amp, (possibly deliberately) apples and oranges are as close as we can get to a fair comparison.  All I'm wondering is, is this truly something like we've never experienced or seen before, or is it just a very specific combination of existing technology released in an extremely careful manner.

 

[Denon2010]

I still trying to figure out who would be stupid enough to spend $55K on a headphone when you can get boxed speakers instead.
 
A box speaker is superior to headphones in every single way. You can get equally high quality if you spend $30,000 on a good speaker setup

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I still trying to figure out who would be stupid enough to spend $55K on a headphone when you can get boxed speakers instead.
 
A box speaker is superior to headphones in every single way. You can get equally high quality if you spend $30,000 on a good speaker setup

 
Some people (including myself) prefer the presentation of headphones over speakers.
 
Some believe that electrostatic headphones sound better than any speaker system regardless of price as well.
 
Wanting to spend X amount of money is not stupid. Please respect others' choices.

 

[Sal1950]

   
Some people (including myself) prefer the presentation of headphones over speakers.
 
Some believe that electrostatic headphones sound better than any speaker system regardless of price as well.
 
Wanting to spend X amount of money is not stupid. Please respect others' choices.

I think all things equal headphones have a advantage in the ability to produce inner detail and high frequency response.
 
But they suffer in the bass register impact, they'll never make the whole room shake the way mine did last night playing Jurassic World dinosaur stomps on BluRay, or a Bach pipe organ piece. And I've never heard cans create a real soundstange like a good pair of stereo speakers correct positioned, just ain't never gonna happen without some fancy DSP.