[Music Alchemist]

  Absolutely I agree that the headphone provides the most amount of difference, but some people would describe the HEK with stock cable on a $2k amp as being not even 50% as good as a HEK with premium cables on a $20k amp.

 
Another thing to keep in mind is that nearly all electrostatic headphone amps are well under $10K, and STAX headphones have nondetachable cables.
 
Let's lay out what an attempt at an "equal value" comparison might look like for an SR-009 system vs the HE 1060 system.
 

1. SR-009: $2,700-4,450
2. TOTL electrostatic headphone amp: $4-10K

 
Okay, the electrostatic part is done, and we're only at roughly $7-14K.
 
What's left? DAC, cables, and even more controversial things like power management and vibration control.
 
But here's the thing. It would only be fair to use all these same things on both systems...meaning that the value of the HE 1060 system would rise along with the SR-009 (etc.) system, making an attempt at an "equal value" comparison futile. Using the additional components on the otherwise cheaper system while leaving the HE 1060 system as-is (using its internal DAC instead of using the same DAC for all systems, using cheap cables instead of the high-end ones, etc.) would not be a fair comparison, in my opinion. My perspective is that if you are going to use higher-end auxiliary components, you should use them on all systems being compared, in order to isolate some of the variables, know what I mean? And of course, there's also the other side of the coin: one or more of these additional things not making a difference either way.
 
Personally, I don't see the point of comparing non-electrostats to the HE 1060 with the hopes that they can compete in terms of overall sound quality, because to my ears, they don't even compete with entry-level electrostats. Guess you could say I'm strongly biased towards electrostats...but there are many audiophiles who feel the same way.
 
And like you mentioned, as far as sound goes, preference is king. So even if it's far superior, that doesn't mean any given person will like it more. (Though in this case, a strong consensus is already being formed.)
 

It's really hard to know what sort of difference someone is hearing when they are trying to describe something that is quantified so differently by different people.

 
Very good point. We'll attain a better understanding as time progresses and more impressions come in.

 

[mulder01]

I disagree that you have to use the same dac and cables etc to make a fair comparison. If I had 50,000 euros to spend on a headphone system, I could buy a new orpheus, or I could buy Abyss + upgraded cables + mono block woo amps + upgraded tubes + expensive interconnects + 5 figure dac + power conditioner + whatever else takes your fancy for the same money, then I call that a fair comparison - 50k system vs 50k system. Like you said, some people just prefer electrostats to planars though, so you're still going to get a preference based comparison from most people. Fair enough if it is better though, but Sennheiser don't really itemize the pricing of the system - you may be comparing a $15k headphone to a $5k one, and if that's the case, you'd hope it was substantially better. (As we both just agreed that the headphone is the hero in any system). I would just be more interested to hear how it compares with systems of equal price, not how much better it is than 009+BHSE at a fifth of the cost. No prizes for guessing that the orpheus is better. You'd bloody hope so.

 

[Music Alchemist]

I disagree that you have to use the same dac and cables etc to make a fair comparison. If I had 50,000 euros to spend on a headphone system, I could buy a new orpheus, or I could buy Abyss + upgraded cables + mono block woo amps + upgraded tubes + expensive interconnects + 5 figure dac + power conditioner + whatever else takes your fancy for the same money, then I call that a fair comparison - 50k system vs 50k system. Like you said, some people just prefer electrostats to planars though, so you're still going to get a preference based comparison from most people. Fair enough if it is better though, but Sennheiser don't really itemize the pricing of the system - you may be comparing a $15k headphone to a $5k one, and if that's the case, you'd hope it was substantially better. (As we both just agreed that the headphone is the hero in any system). I would just be more interested to hear how it compares with systems of equal price, not how much better it is than 009+BHSE at a fifth of the cost. No prizes for guessing that the orpheus is better. You'd bloody hope so.

 
If we're talking about "What to buy with that much money?", then yeah, I see what you're saying. But if you were able to actually do that comparison, I would hope that you would also connect the other gear to the Orpheus system, if only to hear how it sounds with and without it.

 

[mulder01]

For 50 grand, you'd hope that all the stuff in the orpheus system is already of the same world class quality so it shouldn't matter if you change it to different gear. It is a cost-no-object system, so they can put any components they like into it with no limits so it should already have the best power supply and the best isolating base and the best dac and the best amp and the need for cables is eliminated due to the stuff all being permanently attached to eachother, so it should still be better than everything you can plug into it.

 

[up late]

this is a silly debate imo. the orpheus is a statement product that is meant to be more than just the sum of its parts. to diss it from a price/performance perspective is missing the point. it's also a bit hypocritical coming from an owner of the abyss, which is the most expensive headphone in production on the planet (but not for much longer).

 

[mulder01]

The statement it's making is that it's the best headphone system in the world, and sennheiser have put a price tag on it that they feel is appropriate.  If you can buy better for the same money then they haven't succeded in my eyes.

 

[up late]

well you won't know whether you agree with sennheiser's claim or not unless you experience it for yourself now will you? and didn't abyss do the same with its pricing and claim to be "the finest instruments for musical reproduction"? it's just a marketing slogan. heck, grado used to describe its cans as "truly the world's finest".

 

[mulder01]

Nobody will. I'm just asking for fair comparisons. It may be a ststement product, but at the end of the day, it's purpose is to play to music through headphones and I don't think this system deserves any special treatment for being stylish.

 

[Music Alchemist]

For 50 grand, you'd hope that all the stuff in the orpheus system is already of the same world class quality so it shouldn't matter if you change it to different gear. It is a cost-no-object system, so they can put any components they like into it with no limits so it should already have the best power supply and the best isolating base and the best dac and the best amp and the need for cables is eliminated due to the stuff all being permanently attached to eachother, so it should still be better than everything you can plug into it.

 
Just because it's expensive and the headphone is designed for ultimate performance doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. I've never seen anyone claim that it has the best DAC, and at least a few people on this thread have criticized the HEV 1060's DAC for being DS instead of R2R and so on. You still need at least one cable to connect your source to it. Many would want to use an aftermarket power cable. Add another set of cables if you want to use a different DAC. And another power cable for that DAC, for those who feel the urge. And the list goes on. And um...just because you don't need to use cables to connect stuff doesn't make the DAC better...

 

[up late]

@mulder - of course folks will get to experience it - some already have. the fact is it hasn't been released yet so it's nigh on impossible for anyone to compare it directly with other pinnacle headphone rigs. you're going to have to be patient if that's what you're waiting for. the lavish build is integral to the statement that sennheiser is making with this product, but there's obviously serious audio engineering underpinning it. but i can understand that you wouldn't place much importance on aesthetics being an abyss owner.

 

[fiascogarcia]

Nobody will. I'm just asking for fair comparisons. It may be a ststement product, but at the end of the day, it's purpose is to play to music through headphones and I don't think this system deserves any special treatment for being stylish.

 
If I'm interpreting this properly, if you really want a fair comparison, at this level, base it on sound alone.  Forget what it costs or what it looks like, audition it, and determine if there are other combos that produce equal or better sound.  Period. Price point and value should be completely left out of the equation unless you are truly interested in buying the product, then it is your personal decision.

 

[Music Alchemist]

but i can understand that you wouldn't place much importance on aesthetics being an abyss owner.

 
Man, I must be one of the few people who thinks the Abyss looks awesome. Getting it to fit me right was pretty much impossible, though. @mulder01 suspects it was due to the fabric head rest of the shop's demo unit being worn out, causing it to "dig down" on me. (I had to hold it up manually to even listen, and to no avail I tried all the combinations like twisting the pads, adjusting the headband width, etc.)
 

  If I'm interpreting this properly, if you really want a fair comparison, at this level, base it on sound alone.  Forget what it costs or what it looks like, audition it, and determine if there are other combos that produce equal or better sound.  Period. Price point and value should be completely left out of the equation unless you are truly interested in buying the product, then it is your personal decision.

 
I agree, but what he was implying was that if you use five figures worth of additional gear with the much more affordable headphones, it makes it more likely that the sound will improve and potentially be closer to competing with the HE 1060. If we're just talking about preference here, though, you should be able to tell which headphone you like more using "whatever" system.

 

[mulder01]

   
If I'm interpreting this properly, if you really want a fair comparison, at this level, base it on sound alone.  Forget what it costs or what it looks like, audition it, and determine if there are other combos that produce equal or better sound.  Period. Price point and value should be completely left out of the equation unless you are truly interested in buying the product, then it is your personal decision.

 
Well, I consider a fair contest to be between systems of the same value.  All we know so far is that it bests setups that cost a fraction of it's price, (no surprises there,) but if you could compare it to equally priced systems, would it still come out on top, or is it on par, or maybe it doesn't stack up, and you're just paying a premium for the aesthetics and privelage of owning of a statement piece.  
 
But yes, in the real world, like you say, if you have oodles of cash to spend on anything you want, then you will just buy whatever you like the best regardless of cost.  But that's a personal choice that's not really relevant to an apples for apples comparison.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Believe it or not, a year or so ago when I was pondering what an Orpheus successor might be like, I imagined it having yellow drivers...and whaddaya know, here we are!

 

  Well, I consider a fair contest to be between systems of the same value.  All we know so far is that it bests setups that cost a fraction of it's price, (no surprises there,) but if you could compare it to equally priced systems, would it still come out on top, or is it on par, or maybe it doesn't stack up, and you're just paying a premium for the aesthetics and privelage of owning of a statement piece.  
 
But yes, in the real world, like you say, if you have oodles of cash to spend on anything you want, then you will just buy whatever you like the best regardless of cost.  But that's a personal choice that's not really relevant to an apples for apples comparison.

 
Making the two systems equally priced doesn't make it apples for apples, in my opinion; it just introduces more variables.
 
Here's the million dollar question: What is it that makes you think adding more expensive components to a four-figure headphone will make it sound that much better? I mean, even the most hardcore audiophiles will admit that you can't change the fundamental character of a headphone's sound. It should also be noted that some of the people who have heard the HE 1060 have also heard the other headphones on systems that cost five to six figures.

 

[mulder01]

It could also be noted that many audiophiles believe that headphones will scale massively when hooked up to the correct gear. You get a lot of different information from a lot of different people. If you don't agree that a 50k setup vs 50k setup is a fair comparison then we can agree to disagree, but the fact that you can't plug the 1060 into anything else or plug any other headphones into the rest of the orpheus system makes it impossible to compare headphone to headphone with all other variables eliminated. Perhaps Sennheiser did this on purpose? MY million dollar question is, you have that sum of money to spend, is the orpheus clearly the best option, or just one of many alternate options.

I just wonder how much more is possible from headphones that hasn't already been achieved. If they have to resort to doing weird stuff like having amps in the earcups and and setting in concrete the combination of gear that must be used, we must be pretty close to the ceiling of what's possible from more flexible options.