[tonykaz]

Mr.StanD,
 
Perhaps it matters a bit or a good bit.  
 
It's akin to having your photos a bit out of focus, you can still see the image properly if it's a bit off but when you see the image as perfectly sharp you immediately recognize it as better.  
 
So now it comes down to the question of : can we afford a sharper focus on our music? 
 
Professionals have no choice but to pursue the most accurate representation they can achieve, their patrons pay for it and demand it.  
 
We civilians are beginning to be offered the professional level of accuracy and sharpness that produces the music we enjoy, we are about to be reconverting our digital bits in a much better manner, this is a thumb nail sketch of what this DAC race is all about: it's coming down to consumer price levels, we are about to realize the promise of digital that the original creators ( Sony & Philips ) promised and have been promising all this time ( since the mid-1980s ).  
 
It's getting very good for us now, it's about time.
We can let-go of those turntables and have a nice audio system whilst sitting on a bench in a Park.    
 
Tony in Michigan  

 

[Billheiser]

Ok, got it. Wise advice and much appreciated. Last question... Magni vs. Vali - noticeable sound difference or no? If yes, how would you describe it, particularly on HD600's?

Yes, noticeable sound difference to me, in favor of the Vali. Based on listening thru the hd600's.

 

[money4me247]

Mr.StanD,

Perhaps it matters a bit or a good bit.  

It's akin to having your photos a bit out of focus, you can still see the image properly if it's a bit off but when you see the image as perfectly sharp you immediately recognize it as better.  

So now it comes down to the question of : can we afford a sharper focus on our music? 

Professionals have no choice but to pursue the most accurate representation they can achieve, their patrons pay for it and demand it.  

We civilians are beginning to be offered the professional level of accuracy and sharpness that produces the music we enjoy, we are about to be reconverting our digital bits in a much better manner, this is a thumb nail sketch of what this DAC race is all about: it's coming down to consumer price levels, we are about to realize the promise of digital that the original creators ( Sony & Philips ) promised and have been promising all this time ( since the mid-1980s ).  

It's getting very good for us now, it's about time.
We can let-go of those turntables and have a nice audio system whilst sitting on a bench in a Park.    

Tony in Michigan  

I strongly disagree. I tried a bunch of different sub-$300 dacs and found that they offered marginal extremely subtle improvements. None of them had as dramatic impact on sound quality as switching headphones. Not only that, it seemed to me that the differences between dacs were more different flavors rather than one actually performing better than another. From my experience, having a sub-$300 dac or not hardly makes that large of difference. I personally would recommend newcomers to spend that extra $300 into their headphones as the sonic differences are much more dramatic.

I am moving up in price point to the bifrost uber which is considered to be one of the best dacs you can get for $500ish, and we'll see how much of a difference it makes.

note that many audio professionals use headphones like the sub-$100 sony mdrv6 or mdr7506 so I think the whole idea that you need more components or expensive headphones to hear music properly is one of the audio industry's biggest myths.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Yes, noticeable sound difference to me, in favor of the Vali. Based on listening thru the hd600's.

 
Hm, I wonder how the Magni 2 Uber and Vali compare.
 
How would you describe the tonal balance (ie neutrality) of the Vali? (I know some tubes can achieve neutral sound.)
 

I strongly disagree. I tried a bunch of different sub-$300 dacs and found that they offered marginal extremely subtle improvements. None of them had as dramatic impact on sound quality as switching headphones. Not only that, it seemed to me that the differences between dacs were more different flavors rather than one actually performing better than another. From my experience, having a sub-$300 dac or not hardly makes that large of difference. I personally would recommend newcomers to spend that extra $300 into their headphones as the sonic differences are much more dramatic.

I am moving up in price point to the bifrost uber which is considered to be one of the best dacs you can get for $500ish, and we'll see how much of a difference it makes.

note that many audio professionals use headphones like the sub-$100 sony mdrv6 or mdr7506 so I think the whole idea that you need more components or expensive headphones to hear music properly is one of the audio industry's biggest myths.

 
But he was obviously talking about ultra-high-end DACs.

(And how affordable stuff is getting much better.)
 
It's funny you mention those headphones, because I got my newest pair specifically because they outperformed those two.

 

[Guidostrunk]

Wow. I should have bought those sonys, and called it a day. O.o

I strongly disagree. I tried a bunch of different sub-$300 dacs and found that they offered marginal extremely subtle improvements. None of them had as dramatic impact on sound quality as switching headphones. Not only that, it seemed to me that the differences between dacs were more different flavors rather than one actually performing better than another. From my experience, having a sub-$300 dac or not hardly makes that large of difference. I personally would recommend newcomers to spend that extra $300 into their headphones as the sonic differences are much more dramatic.

I am moving up in price point to the bifrost uber which is considered to be one of the best dacs you can get for $500ish, and we'll see how much of a difference it makes.

note that many audio professionals use headphones like the sub-$100 sony mdrv6 or mdr7506 so I think the whole idea that you need more components or expensive headphones to hear music properly is one of the audio industry's biggest myths.

 

[Billheiser]

How would you describe the tonal balance (ie neutrality) of the Vali? (I know some tubes can achieve neutral sound.)

I would call it neutral; I would call the Magni neutral too. But somehow the Vali is more pleasurable to me. More sense of depth, maybe. The Magni seemed just a bit cold to me.

 

[rovopio]

I would call it neutral; I would call the Magni neutral too. But somehow the Vali is more pleasurable to me. More sense of depth, maybe. The Magni seemed just a bit cold to me.

 
never heard the old magni. but the 2 uber is not cold. i think it just amplified the sound without that much coloration.
 
im using very low impedance grado and sony headphone. and my assessment aren't the best.

 

[mkozlows]

  What about decent computer sound cards? Is it worth it to upgrade an X-Fi Titanium HD to say a Bifrost Uber, or would that money be better spent on different headphones?

In my experience, which is not the experience of everyone, DACs make a difference if and only if you have audible noise from interfering electronics in your source. So if you hear static when you move your mouse or whatever, get a DAC. If you don't hear any obvious problems, I doubt you'll hear any benefit. (I like Marco Arment's description of the difference with an external DAC: "with my most sensitive headphones (the TH900), nothing playing, and the volume cranked very high — higher than I’d ever play music — I can hear very slight noise from my Mac’s output that isn’t present on the Bifrost’s. But I rarely listen to extremely loud silence.")
 
But of course many people say there are differences, so whatever. Either they're hearing things I don't hear, they're imagining things, or I just haven't heard the right DACs (Benchmark DAC-1 and Headroom Micro are the ones I've personally tested). 
 
Either way, it's not even close to the difference that you'd hear by getting different headphones, so if you think your headphones aren't super-awesome and have no problems with your source, I'd spend the money on headphones. If you already have high-end headphones, well, if you're in this for the hobbyist aspects and have the disposable money, then go ahead and grab a DAC, because why not. It'll certainly measure better, and maybe you can hear a difference; at the very least, you can be satisfied that your signal path is all optimized in a purist-y way. I go to the trouble of running USB out from my tablet to my DAC for basically that reason -- I don't think I can hear a difference, but it pleases me on principle.

 

[rovopio]

if your headphone is a sr60 sr80 grado, you need DAC more than you need an amp though.
 
especially if your motherboard or laptop is crap.

 

[TWerk]

I have a few combined DAC/AMP units, and I find some have more micro detail and a tighter, higher resolution sound than others. (Better bass punch and sound stage as well!)
 
You guys think it is the amp part that is causing the improved detailing and tighter, cleaner sound rather than the DAC? It has to be one of the two since I am hearing obvious differences in sound.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I have a few combined DAC/AMP units, and I find some have more micro detail and a tighter, higher resolution sound than others. (Better bass punch and sound stage as well!)
 
You guys think it is the amp part that is causing the improved detailing and tighter, cleaner sound rather than the DAC? It has to be one of the two since I am hearing obvious differences in sound.

 
If the body of Head-Fi knowledge (ahem, opinions) is to be taken at face value, it could easily be both.

 

[Tuneslover]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you use your computer's built-in DAC instead of a better external one, it may end up sounding quite awful, or at least a little bland. Let's say, hypothetically, your computer's built-in DAC is particularly inferior. If in that scenario you use just an external amp, you are merely amplifying that "inferior" signal.

Amen to that. Let's not forget we're talking about shelling out $99 or $149 for a Modi, not thousands of dollars. The original Modi & Magni do a terrific job of improving my computer's sound. My Hifiman HE500's, Sennheiser 650's, Beyerdynamics DT1350's and Grado SR80's all sound wonderful through the original combo. If you don't believe me, then check out the thread on the original equipment. Rest assured the Schiit boys know they have a great combo and I don't think they are going to tamper too much with a successful and well known formula. Im betting the 2/Übers will sound much like (possibly a bit "better" than the) originals.

 

[StanD]

 
Mr.StanD,
 
Perhaps it matters a bit or a good bit.  
 
It's akin to having your photos a bit out of focus, you can still see the image properly if it's a bit off but when you see the image as perfectly sharp you immediately recognize it as better.  
 
So now it comes down to the question of : can we afford a sharper focus on our music? 
 
Professionals have no choice but to pursue the most accurate representation they can achieve, their patrons pay for it and demand it.  
 
We civilians are beginning to be offered the professional level of accuracy and sharpness that produces the music we enjoy, we are about to be reconverting our digital bits in a much better manner, this is a thumb nail sketch of what this DAC race is all about: it's coming down to consumer price levels, we are about to realize the promise of digital that the original creators ( Sony & Philips ) promised and have been promising all this time ( since the mid-1980s ).  
 
It's getting very good for us now, it's about time.
We can let-go of those turntables and have a nice audio system whilst sitting on a bench in a Park.    
 
Tony in Michigan  

That's not an answer. How is a few PPM in the crystal's ferquency going to affect the playback of music when using a commercial DAC? The answer is, soundwise imperceptible, dollarwise ouch.

 

[money4me247]

Mr.StanD,

Perhaps it matters a bit or a good bit.  

It's akin to having your photos a bit out of focus, you can still see the image properly if it's a bit off but when you see the image as perfectly sharp you immediately recognize it as better.  

So now it comes down to the question of : can we afford a sharper focus on our music? 

Tony in Michigan  

It's interesting how you bring up photography as a parallel. The difference in photography is that you can easily direct compare two photos simultaneously. Hence, photography is relatively devoid of scams or skechy claims such as the cable debate or burn in debate or sampling rate debate that have never been scientifically proven. In the audio hobby, a simultaneous comparision is impossible. People around here seldom even do a blind ABx comparision (which would be the next best thing), yet often make a lot of sonic claims. That's fine btw. Just that in reality a lot of these sonic differences you read abt are not as obvious or even really unidentifiable when rigorously tested. ur opinion may differ & ymmv, but srsly, how many ppl around here doin a dac comparision do a double blind volume matched test? probably zero. so a lot of info here are really just subjective personal opinions that cannot be proven or disproven.

 

[Guidostrunk]

Wow. This thread is a train wreck. Lol