[lekoross]

Thanks, Mkozlows. Tried e-mailing the tech at Schiit but he would only restate what was written in the specs and would not comment on what anything actually means (i.e., linear power supply, analog tweaking" in terms of what they at Schiit believe has changed in terms of how all of this may impact sound. Would you (or anyone else) care to comment on what the (obviously subjective) difference might be between the updated Magni 2/Magni 2 uber and the Modi2/Modi 2 uber or the Modi2/Modi 2 uber with the Vali? These are all new components to me as I am seeking to use my computer (USB) to listen to HD600's. I will end up getting some demos from Schiit (at least to decide between the Magni 2 and Vali), however, would anyone care to comment on what their experiences of the difference between the amps & dacs has been, and perhaps offer some recommendations based on those experiences?

 

[TWerk]

Very good post. Key word here is subtle in regards to different DACS. ESPECIALLY if your a newbie. Good luck hearing the differences without an experienced ear. It's more placebo than anything, I think. If you spend more on something, you probably hear that it sounds better.
 
Amp matters more than DAC, to my ears at least.
 
But the headphone matters more above anything. If you don't like the headphone sound signature itself, good luck trying to change it with any combo of DAC+AMP. 
 
You'll just unlock better performance of the headphone with the right amp. For me, I like the matrix M-stage now.

 

[mkozlows]

  Thanks, Mkozlows. Tried e-mailing the tech at Schiit but he would only restate what was written in the specs and would not comment on what anything actually means (i.e., linear power supply, analog tweaking" in terms of what they at Schiit believe has changed in terms of how all of this may impact sound. Would you (or anyone else) care to comment on what the (obviously subjective) difference might be between the updated Magni 2/Magni 2 uber and the Modi2/Modi 2 uber or the Modi2/Modi 2 uber with the Vali? These are all new components to me as I am seeking to use my computer (USB) to listen to HD600's. I will end up getting some demos from Schiit (at least to decide between the Magni 2 and Vali), however, would anyone care to comment on what their experiences of the difference between the amps & dacs has been, and perhaps offer some recommendations based on those experiences?

Three things that I'll say to you:
 
1. I think Schiit's policy of not commenting on the audible differences between products is commendable, and while it's no doubt frustrating that they won't give you a salesy schtick about how Product X sounds, it means that they're not making grandiose and honestly kinda ridiculous claims, either. 
 
2. My experience with amps and DACs has been that amps can make a big difference if you're working from a source that can't handle your headphones, and a very subtle difference at best if your headphones are easy to drive. DACs can clean up output from noisy devices (computers often qualify), but I haven't myself hear any difference between DACs in devices that are designed for the purpose of delivering sound. As I say, others have had other experiences (and the flamewar about whether that's all placebo belongs in another thread), but I don't think there's anyone who will say that the differences between DACs rise to even 1/10 of the difference between headphones.
 
3. If your plan is to get "demos" from Schiit, keep in mind that you'll be on the hook for some real money in shipping and restocking fees (15% on Magni/Modi); it's more cost-effective to just get the Ubers than to order both and keep the base one if you don't see a need for the Ubers. 

 

[jimmers]

 -- even people who believe strongly that audible differences between reasonable DACs exist...

and some people think that a $7500 Rubidium Atomic Clock makes a great improvement to a $5500 DAC 

glad I don't have such expensive hearing.

 

[Gamingmusiclove]

Very good post. Key word here is subtle in regards to different DACS. ESPECIALLY if your a newbie. Good luck hearing the differences without an experienced ear. It's more placebo than anything, I think. If you spend more on something, you probably hear that it sounds better.

Amp matters more than DAC, to my ears at least.

But the headphone matters more above anything. If you don't like the headphone sound signature itself, good luck trying to change it with any combo of DAC+AMP. 

You'll just unlock better performance of the headphone with the right amp. For me, I like the matrix M-stage now.

Well, maybe its placebo, but for me, i can listen to the difference between different DACs. Maybe im crazy, but who knows?

 

[lekoross]

Ok, got it. Wise advice and much appreciated. Last question... Magni vs. Vali - noticeable sound difference or no? If yes, how would you describe it, particularly on HD600's?

 

[StanD]

  Three things that I'll say to you:
 
1. I think Schiit's policy of not commenting on the audible differences between products is commendable, and while it's no doubt frustrating that they won't give you a salesy schtick about how Product X sounds, it means that they're not making grandiose and honestly kinda ridiculous claims, either. 
 
2. My experience with amps and DACs has been that amps can make a big difference if you're working from a source that can't handle your headphones, and a very subtle difference at best if your headphones are easy to drive. DACs can clean up output from noisy devices (computers often qualify), but I haven't myself hear any difference between DACs in devices that are designed for the purpose of delivering sound. As I say, others have had other experiences (and the flamewar about whether that's all placebo belongs in another thread), but I don't think there's anyone who will say that the differences between DACs rise to even 1/10 of the difference between headphones.
 
3. If your plan is to get "demos" from Schiit, keep in mind that you'll be on the hook for some real money in shipping and restocking fees (15% on Magni/Modi); it's more cost-effective to just get the Ubers than to order both and keep the base one if you don't see a need for the Ubers. 

2. You can always find someone that'll swear by the DAC they dropped 2 grand on or read too much and wishes they could blow that much cash on a DAC. Call it DAC Envy.
3. Now that's good commonsense, that'll make up for most of the fifty bucks difference while eliminating the doubtful voices in back of one's head regretting the one up DAC.

 

[yearsofwisdom]

  2. You can always find someone that'll swear by the DAC they dropped 2 grand on or read too much and wishes they could blow that much cash on a DAC. Call it DAC Envy.
3. Now that's good commonsense, that'll make up for most of the fifty bucks difference while eliminating the doubtful voices in back of one's head regretting the one up DAC.

The problem is, are DACs even worth it then? It seems the amp is really the only thing that affects sound.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  The problem is, are DACs even worth it then? It seems the amp is really the only thing that affects sound.

 
I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you use your computer's built-in DAC instead of a better external one, it may end up sounding quite awful, or at least a little bland. Let's say, hypothetically, your computer's built-in DAC is particularly inferior. If in that scenario you use just an external amp, you are merely amplifying that "inferior" signal.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. Jimmers,
 
The Clock actually does make a significant difference.   
 
Try to locate a Mastering Studio that doesn't rely on one! 
 
Even the large A-Narional Road Shows are now using the 10M clock. 
 
Now-a-days the little recording studios are trending towards the Atomic Clock where they were relying on an Oven Controled Crystal Clock. 
 
This is how all the music and video you ever see is created.  
 
It is kinda pricy for consumers who cope with bare crystals hard wired in their little DAC.  
 
Tony in Michigan 

 

[StanD]

  The problem is, are DACs even worth it then? It seems the amp is really the only thing that affects sound.

A good external DAC is usually a decent change from the soundcard in a PC or laptop or inards of a smartphone. There are some poorly designed or built DACs that are best avoided. Once you get to a certain point the differences are subtle. As many have said, first get a good pair of headphones, an amp that can drive them well and then a DAC, in order of $ spent.
I have a Bifrost Uber USB and my primary headphones cost more. Although I also have a pair of Sennheiser HD600's that I consider to be a great value in great sounding headphones.
In the world of DACs the Modi 2 Uber is less than lunch money and will probably sound great. Much the same can probably be said of the Magni 2 Uber. If Schiit scews up on these two products, bad on them. I expect these two to be home runs, otherwise I'll be dissapointed. We'll hear from the lab rats early adopters soon enough (to the early adopters, forgive my humor).

 

[StanD]

 
Mr. Jimmers,
 
The Clock actually does make a significant difference.   
 
Try to locate a Mastering Studio that doesn't rely on one! 
 
Even the large A-Narional Road Shows are now using the 10M clock. 
 
Now-a-days the little recording studios are trending towards the Atomic Clock where they were relying on an Oven Controled Crystal Clock. 
 
This is how all the music and video you ever see is created.  
 
It is kinda pricy for consumers who cope with bare crystals hard wired in their little DAC.  
 
Tony in Michigan 

And how will a few PPM affect the sound you hear coming out of a consumer DAC? Us carbon units are not test equipment. What fraction of a cent will the pitch of the music be off by?

 

[scizzro]

   
I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you use your computer's built-in DAC instead of a better external one, it may end up sounding quite awful, or at least a little bland. Let's say, hypothetically, your computer's built-in DAC is particularly inferior. If in that scenario you use just an external amp, you are merely amplifying that "inferior" signal.

What about decent computer sound cards? Is it worth it to upgrade an X-Fi Titanium HD to say a Bifrost Uber, or would that money be better spent on different headphones?

 

[Music Alchemist]

  What about decent computer sound cards? Is it worth it to upgrade an X-Fi Titanium HD to say a Bifrost Uber, or would that money be better spent on different headphones?

 
headphones > amp > DAC

 
That is generally the ideal order to take when upgrading components. If your headphones are more sensitive, they may or may not scale with amplification. You'll definitely want to get an external DAC eventually if you intend on building a serious audiophile system.
 
I know at least two people with ultra-high-end systems (think five to six figures) who insist that DACs are more important than amps, but that is not the general consensus.
 
Edit: I just checked your profile. Upgrading your headphones is not a priority at this point. You might as well get an external DAC next once you can wing it.

 

[KLJTech]

  The problem is, are DACs even worth it then? It seems the amp is really the only thing that affects sound.

 
I've heard very nice sounding soundcards, cards that I "could" live use my office system and have no problems at all enjoying my music with them in the chain. A good amp should simply amplify the signal to speaker or headphone listening levels yet add nor subtract anything from the source signal. The more revealing your headphones or speakers are the more you'll hear the difference between DAC's...though even inexpensive ones are getting so very, very good. 
 
If a DAC or any component "is worth it" can only be answered by you and you alone.
 
If you ever get the opportunity to attend an audio show or to listen to a truly high end system at your local dealer you should jump at the chance if to only hear what is possible in home audio. If you're like me you won't be able to afford what you just heard but it will give you value insight into what is possible and something to strive for on a smaller scale. Good luck!