[DMinor]

 
Floss after you finish that one, or your dap will sound muddy.

 

[FatmanSize48]

Floss after you finish that one, or your dap will sound muddy. :wink_face:

I don't get the corn thing.

 

[FatmanSize48]

@FallacyoftheExtremeGuy: Regardless of what side you are on, do not draw parallels between high end dining (wine excluded) and audiophilia.

 

[fumanchu]

I've recently heard really nice systems owned by other people. One guy was a dealer and had a $100,000 system and was comparing it to a $75,000 magna planar (?) system in the next room.

I tell you, it all sounded like nothing I have ever heard before... But I had no way of measuring the sound I was enjoying! To further complicate things, the host was serving beer and had lava lamps instead of viewing proper meters! I had to leave when I noticed the incense sticks...

Why would somebody have such a system if they could not demonstrate and verify that it sounds better than the system they have at Best Buy for a tenth of the cost? All of the people listening were potential buyers of this equipment and had jobs so I'm guessing they weren't exactly rich.

 

[Gintaras]

I've recently heard really nice systems owned by other people. One guy was a dealer and had a $100,000 system and was comparing it to a $75,000 magna planar (?) system in the next room.

I tell you, it all sounded like nothing I have ever heard before... But I had no way of measuring the sound I was enjoying! To further complicate things, the host was serving beer and had lava lamps instead of viewing proper meters! I had to leave when I noticed the incense sticks...

Why would somebody have such a system if they could not demonstrate and verify that it sounds better than the system they have at Best Buy for a tenth of the cost? All of the people listening were potential buyers of this equipment and had jobs so I'm guessing they weren't exactly rich.

Why?
Answer is simple: Collective Masochism

 

[truckdriver]

In my "imaginary audio world" my Galaxy S1 (with Voodoo) always had an FM radio-like clarity. I believe I even posted that here. But, with the Shure E5c and Maven Player, the S1 produced a soundstage that still is unmatched by anything I've heard since. It's as massive (with regular music) as those Dr. Chesky's binaural recordings are over the Q701.
 
Man, I wish I could "learn" to control that "imaginary brain trick" and transfer it to the 846. It pairs badly with the S1. I guess I need to think harder. C'mon, think!
 
Well, in the absence of mind control, I'll begrudgingly try one or two of those dual DAC boutique abomination of pricing justice. 
 

 

[FatmanSize48]

Can one explain to me what makes a dual DAC system theoretically sound better than a single DAC one? I understand how balanced amps MIGHT provide better performances than their single-ended counterparts, but the benefits of dual-DAC systems elude me.

 

[tgdinamo]

I tell you, it all sounded like nothing I have ever heard before... But I had no way of measuring the sound I was enjoying!

Why would somebody have such a system if they could not demonstrate and verify that it sounds better than the system they have at Best Buy for a tenth of the cost? 

 
So what if you can't measure if it sounds better than anything you have ever heard?
Let me ask you this question - if you could measure the SQ and the measurement result was not impressive would knowing that number change your opinion about what you actually HEARD (which according to you is that it sounded better than anything you heard before)?

 

[ClieOS]

Can one explain to me what makes a dual DAC system theoretically sound better than a single DAC one? I understand how balanced amps MIGHT provide better performances than their single-ended counterparts, but the benefits of dual-DAC systems elude me.

 
The simple answer is because the chips are separated further apart physically on the PCB, you get better separation from both the ground and as well as power supply rail that will result in better crosstalk and lower noise. A more complicated answer is that some DAC can run in dual-mono (or multi-mono) configuration where each channel is decoded using multiple DAC core to further lower SNR / enhance dynamic range. An good example will be ESS Sabre ES9018 with its 8 DAC cores / channels on one chip. You get 129dB of dynamic range when running 8 channels sound (such as 7.1ch setup in home theater), but improves to 133dB in stereo (where each of the 4 DAC core decoding one channel) and to 135dB in mono (all 8 cores for one channel, so you need two ES9018 for a total of 16 DAC core, i.e. HM901). The downside is of course the more DAC you used for each channel, the more power and components you will need to compensate for.
 
In the end, it is a balanced  / compromise between SQ and your other design goals when it comes to how many DAC to use in player.

 

[FatmanSize48]

Thanks, ClieOS!

 

[DigitalFreak]

I think I just got a headache from reading the last two pages. That and it feels like I just wondered into a sound science thread.
 
You measurement people realize that purrin himself whose measured countless headphones, earphones and other gear has stated very bluntly that measurements should only be used as a guide. He's also stated he's heard gear that measured terrible but when he listened to it he thought it sounded quite good. Also, hes stated he's heard gear that measured quite good only to find out it sounded like schiit when he sat down and listened to it. Measurements isn't the end all factor when selecting gear. Your ears should be the final determining factor not a graph. The placebo argument that's been thrown around these forums time and time again is a two edged sword. People who have convinced themselves that amps and DAC's sound the same and that graphs are the audiophiles bible can easily be accused by others of unconsciously biasing themselves to the point that they don't want to hear a difference. Think about it, the human psyche is a crazy thing. The placebo argument can easily be hurled right back at you and the proof of fact now lays on your shoulders to change other peoples minds. This infighting is a circular argument that goes nowhere and never seems to stop. Why can't some people agree to disagree and be done with it?

 

[fumanchu]

Quote-Measurements isn't the end all factor when selecting gear. Your ears should be the final determining factor not a graph.

With all this great improvement in technology, I just thought there might be some apps in the Apple or Android stores where could have the computers "hear" for the audiophiles and then give non- opinionated facts about the sound. In addition to noting the clarity, distortion, or freq response perhaps they could also have an interface between the operating systems to decide which had the most natural, realistic, relaxing sound.

Such an app would totally eliminate the need for us humans to strain our hearing limits, and to make it truly objective we could wear soundproof shooting plugs while listening; never again will we need to discuss the actual sound!

 

[tgdinamo]

 I just thought there might be some apps in the Apple or Android stores where could have the computers "hear" for the audiophiles and then give non- opinionated facts about the sound.

 
My guess is some type of app to try to do this can be created but I don't think people will ever agree that any one app can give non-opinionated facts about sound (imho that's a good thing - it would be so boring if everyone even thought they heard the music the same way - that could even shut down this forum

).

 

[fumanchu]

My guess is some type of app to try to do this can be created but I don't think people will ever agree that any one app can give non-opinionated facts about sound (imho that's a good thing - it would be so boring if everyone even thought they heard the music the same way - that could even shut down this forum :eek: ).

Or really I wonder if the Android and Apple systems would perceive the sound quality in the exact same ways. In particular, the emotional coefficients and spacial presentation recognitions might vary between engineers. The last thing we need is another arena in which those companies might compete!

 

[zilch0md]

How about the sad state of the so-caled audiophile DAP market?