[Saidear]

I hear what you are saying, but I highly doubt that a $700 MP3 player is low margin. I may be wrong. I do understand your point, but this understanding isn't sufficient to overcome my disappointment.

I haven't had any other iRiver product, but surely they could have leveraged SOMETHING to make playlist imports doable.

Would depend on a lot of things - R&D (aka tuning), hardware costs, etc.  

And yeah, at that price point then there is less of an excuse. Though if the manufacturer is expecting only to sell a thousand units, then that could be plausible.  However at say $300 or less point that is different.  Many of these manufacturers aren't able to get the economy of scale to work in their benefit yet.  

 

[MParrott]

Yup. Economics 101... But not an excuse

 

[OK-Guy]

Saidear... when you purchase a DAP would you expect it to work out of the box or do you prefer to re-tag your music & wait for unpredictable updates?... if it's the latter do you think it's justified that you should be used as some beta-tester paying for the privilege?
 
this hobby is meant to be about enjoying your music and not having to worry about if you can figure how to get you music on a DAP or if the SQ will be changed with the next firmware update.

 

[Hutnicks]

  Saidear... when you purchase a DAP would you expect it to work out of the box or do you prefer to re-tag your music & wait for unpredictable updates?... if it's the latter do you think it's justified that you should be used as some beta-tester paying for the privilege?
 
this hobby is meant to be about enjoying your music and not having to worry about if you can figure how to get you music on a DAP or if the SQ will be changed with the next firmware update.

Not so. The game here is to be willingly pooped upon by some manufacturer thereby gaining the sympathy of your peers while allowing one the feeling of being a part of the manufacturing cycle itself. It's much like the child who injures itself to gain parental attention

 
Clever indeed for the manufacturers to tap into such a primal need

 

[gikigill]

And then portray oneself as the warrior who took one for the team.

 

[Takeanidea]

They still play music believe it or not. Much easier than putting a record on or a CD for that matter. It's good to have a good old whinge every now and again though I suppose :-O)

 

[gikigill]

Damn right I will have a whinge if I paid 1k+ for a DAP or 100k for a car or 1000k for a house and it doesn't do its intended job perfectly.
 
My portable rig was full iBasso and almost as much as a DX100 but I wouldn't touch the DX100 when it was launched with a 50 foot pole.

 

[Takeanidea]

You can get the DX100 2ndhand for a fraction of the retail price and it doesn't need the clutter of extra amps and lod cables . I know you wouldn't touch it with a 50 foot pole and I respect your reasoning for that, there are lots of us out there who are enjoying it on a daily basis despite the limitations.
Life isn't perfect

 

[Saidear]

  Saidear... when you purchase a DAP would you expect it to work out of the box or do you prefer to re-tag your music & wait for unpredictable updates?... if it's the latter do you think it's justified that you should be used as some beta-tester paying for the privilege?
 
this hobby is meant to be about enjoying your music and not having to worry about if you can figure how to get you music on a DAP or if the SQ will be changed with the next firmware update.

When I purchase a DAP from the likes of Sony, Apple, Phillips, or Sansa who have a proven history in the market, you bet I do.  When I purchase it from a relatively obscure and niche company like FiiO, AK, etc - I do so knowing full well I am sacrificing the comfort of a proven track record for the thrill of getting something just that more enjoyable.  I've already had to retag my music with Apple in order to get my files to play the way I want them, doing so for a non-mainstream player isn't that big of a deal to me.  
 
I am not normal in that regard, I suppose, and I can understand that many others would prefer a far more mainstream experience to their audiophile-grade DAP. I'd love it if the next iPod sported some serious attention to audio quality.  Here is the sad reality though: this is a niche market.  That means the main players aren't too interested in catering to us since there isn't enough money to justify the modest returns they would see.  The smaller players who can make gains by eating at the edges of the PMP market where the big fish don't go unfortunately lack the resources to offer the same quality outside of the big differentiator: sound. 

 

[Takeanidea]

I think that's very well put. The sound quality , for me, that has to be the most important thing , everything else is secondary, so the flaws just don't matter, they can be lived with

 

[Gignac]

I think that's very well put. The sound quality , for me, that has to be the most important thing , everything else is secondary, so the flaws just don't matter, they can be lived with

 
Always interesting to see how these threads can pick up overnight.
 
Read through what everyone here was saying - seems like a bit of a cyclical conversation, but yes: this is a niche market, and by the time the developers have done their R&D all the way to final assembly, they are most likely out of funds and behind schedule on loans, etc., so doing a few months of beta testing and adjusting is not always possible.
 
I use a Studio 3rd Anv. DAP which I have had all kinds of issues with (purchased it used and their was a broken solder joint at the usb port), but the sound always brought me back.
 
We might all share that certain kind of crazy that allows us to put up with the difficulties of use - and make no mistake, our struggles to get the player working the way we want it to is all a part of the bonding ceremony with the player.  If you spend 10 hours getting your player setup to work just the way you want, you've already invested a heck of a lot more than just the price tag.
 
There is value in having to do some of the work ourselves though - this value comes back to us as additional appreciation once the task is finished and we can finally enjoy our product.  The joy in this process of working to achieve what we want out of a piece of equipment is something that has to be accounted for when trying to argue with someone who has logged the hours with these difficult players.
 
The attachment goes beyond the dollars spent, it's deeply rooted in the sense of accomplishment the user feels once they've finally managed to get the player to work right (this also means they user has been fiddling with it for a while and has, in the process, become more comfortable with the particular UI, button layout, etc.)
 
Do I think things should change in the market? Yes.  However, I also hope their will continue to be small manufacturers who take the next leaps in design that the big players cannot afford to bother with.  These small manufacturers will always have technical blips along the way.

 

[Sauntere]

 

 
There is value in having to do some of the work ourselves though - this value comes back to us as additional appreciation once the task is finished and we can finally enjoy our product.  The joy in this process of working to achieve what we want out of a piece of equipment is something that has to be accounted for when trying to argue with someone who has logged the hours with these difficult players.
 
The attachment goes beyond the dollars spent, it's deeply rooted in the sense of accomplishment the user feels once they've finally managed to get the player to work right (this also means they user has been fiddling with it for a while and has, in the process, become more comfortable with the particular UI, button layout, etc.)
 
 

 
Well i disagree with everything you said here... I want to buy a product and have it just work.. I want to load music and enjoy.. 
 
There is zero sense of accomplishment in "finally getting it to work" just a huge amount of frustration. The thing should do what i expect it to. It should do what it i advertised to do. What the hell is going on when you can write something like the above in all sincerity ? Not in any way a reflection on you but on the state of the market that you have become comfortable enough to say such things..
 
Completely bemused...Why do we accept the unacceptable ?

 

[Saidear]

   
Well i disagree with everything you said here... I want to buy a product and have it just work.. I want to load music and enjoy.. 

 
And you are totally free to disagree!  

Not everyone approaches the hobby with the same expectations beyond "great sounding music". 

 

[tgdinamo]

   
Well i disagree with everything you said here... I want to buy a product and have it just work.. I want to load music and enjoy.. 
 

 
You can just load music and have it work with mainstream players like iphone/ipad/sony. However, if you also want the HD resolution with best possible SQ then you enter the area of smaller vendors. They don't have resources to meet your every expectation (in terms of software) to match all the software features mainstream players have. Most often they must choose between spending time/resources on software bells and whistles vs best possible sound and very simple and stripped down interface (and at least a few choose SQ - thank GOD for that). Also please remember that the more sophisticated the software is in terms of features, the more likely it is to have bugs (therefore endless firmware updates where each one has the potential to alter the SQ - for better or worse). 

 

[Gignac]

   
Well i disagree with everything you said here... I want to buy a product and have it just work.. I want to load music and enjoy.. 
 
There is zero sense of accomplishment in "finally getting it to work" just a huge amount of frustration. The thing should do what i expect it to. It should do what it i advertised to do. What the hell is going on when you can write something like the above in all sincerity ? Not in any way a reflection on you but on the state of the market that you have become comfortable enough to say such things..
 
Completely bemused...Why do we accept the unacceptable ?

 
I wasn't saying that having a product that must be initially tinkered with is an ideal to aim for, I was simply stating that this is the way things are with many of these players and I was trying to account for the allegiance it builds in its users.  In trying to explain the bonds that this creates between user and product, I didn't have the need to state (as is so often repeated) that a half-baked design is not convenient for anyone. 
 
Would I prefer something that worked perfectly out of the box and had an exceptionally intuitive interface? Of course - I think everyone would.  The using of the device should be what grabs our attention and keeps us engaged.
 
In the existing market, however, this doesn't really happen too often, so for now we need to learn some coping mechanisms and enjoy the products out there to the best of our ability.  Nobody here is trying to 'accept the unacceptable', we're simply trying to accept reality.
 
Huffing and puffing into the wind doesn't a good DAP make.  However, if the point of this thread is to vent frustrations with equipment, I'm certainly not going to stand in the way!
 
Happy listening,