The Reference 6SN7 Thread

Nov 26, 2020 at 12:48 PM Post #2,701 of 10,669
I will get my tube tester out soon, I believe it is part of a Finnegan barricade at the moment.

Recently I mixed the 63 Melz 1578, the 58 solid plate Melz, a black plate Ken-Rad VT231, and a 1942 RCA grey glass in a blind test for eight friends. Test amps were four identical Incubus amps and an Aqua La Voce S3 DAC, HD 800 headphones.

The numbers on this round, with 100 being a perfect score were.

98 for the 58 solid plate Melz
97 for the 63 Melz 1578
94 for the Ken-Rad
93 for the RCA

My personal scores were just one point lower for each of the Melz with the other tubes coming in at 94 each. It is not right to have two tubes so close by the same manufacturer in our final 52 tubes so it will be the 1958 solid plate. It is right up there with the top tubes we have for said test.

The biggest difference in the Melz tubes, for me, was a bit of background noise with no signal for the 63 Melz. The 58 is dead silent in my amp with no signal. Scores aside I believe the 58 has a slight edge in bass accuracy and top end but I am listening with Focal Utopias and not the Sennheisers. I am also listening with a Gungnir DAC.

The mids on the Melz tubes of this structure are incredible. On some of the later Melz the mids are a bit overwhelming.

I A n B tested this tube against my set of Russian tubes (Fotons not included),Melz 1578- 63' 71', (and a pair of 51' 68HC) Only one of them gave it a good run.. the 63'. As @Paladin79 pointed out, a very good set of headphones will probably reveal everything these tubes can offer (especially/mostly the 58' oddity) I have great entry level headphones imo so these are my views on the 58' with that in mind. Too my ears the 63' has a velvet texture with an all day sound, it will not fatigue you for them long sessions. The 58' is all that with the ability to draw you into the music a little deeper. Scorpions Live album, track -HOILIDAY- Isn't the best recorded track out there, yet still able to draw some emotion and an occasional goose bump. The 58' somehow made the track more A L i v e... with added detail in the sour rounding crowd. That was my "oh dam" moment with this tube. I also noticed instruments are evenly spread throughout the spectrum range, nothing jumps out at you or gets in the way, and the vocals..wow.. I almost forgot about the vocals..because of that even spread.. vocals seem to take center stage, not in an obtrusive way, with an elevated roundedness. A bonus for Thom Yorke recordings. :)

That was fun to roll, Thanks @Paladin79
2020-11-18 12.05.28-1.jpg2020-11-18 12.05.03.jpg
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 1:06 PM Post #2,702 of 10,669
I am sure you do lol. I have three computers and an IPad pro opened right now so it was easy enough.

I am listening to a 56 Melz solid plate right now but in all honesty I cannot tell much difference between that and the 58. Getting that tube by accident is what started me on this quest.

Does the '56 have the metal top mica supports like the rare '58? Or is it a standard, non-1578 version?
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 1:08 PM Post #2,703 of 10,669
I A n B tested this tube against my set of Russian tubes (Fotons not included),Melz 1578- 63' 71', (and a pair of 51' 68HC) Only one of them gave it a good run.. the 63'. As @Paladin79 pointed out, a very good set of headphones will probably reveal everything these tubes can offer (especially/mostly the 58' oddity) I have great entry level headphones imo so these are my views on the 58' with that in mind. Too my ears the 63' has a velvet texture with an all day sound, it will not fatigue you for them long sessions. The 58' is all that with the ability to draw you into the music a little deeper. Scorpions Live album, track -HOILIDAY- Isn't the best recorded track out there, yet still able to draw some emotion and an occasional goose bump. The 58' somehow made the track more A L i v e... with added detail in the sour rounding crowd. That was my "oh dam" moment with this tube. I also noticed instruments are evenly spread throughout the spectrum range, nothing jumps out at you or gets in the way, and the vocals..wow.. I almost forgot about the vocals..because of that even spread.. vocals seem to take center stage, not in an obtrusive way, with an elevated roundedness. A bonus for Thom Yorke recordings. :)

That was fun to roll, Thanks @Paladin79
2020-11-18 12.05.28-1.jpg2020-11-18 12.05.03.jpg
I love your photos. Notice how all have the same ribs in the plates, solid or perforated. Now imagine a Foton's plates from the 60's being in place of those two types of plates. I have one of those on the way but I have doubts it will sound close to the 63, I do not know the year on it yet but the plates look like this Foton. Now @bcowen loves his Fotons so if the new tube has the Foton bass with the Melz mids and highs, he will be in hog heaven.



Foton.jpg
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 1:09 PM Post #2,704 of 10,669
Does the '56 have the metal top mica supports like the rare '58? Or is it a standard, non-1578 version?
Identical to the 58 in all ways. Metal top supports, ledge on mica plates etc.56 melz.jpg
 
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Nov 26, 2020 at 1:18 PM Post #2,705 of 10,669
I love your photos. Notice how all have the same ribs in the plates, solid or perforated. Now imagine a Foton's plates from the 60's being in place of those two types of plates. I have one of those on the way but I have doubts it will sound close to the 63, I do not know the year on it yet but the plates look like this Foton. Now @bcowen loves his Fotons so if the new tube has the Foton bass with the Melz mids and highs, he will be in hog heaven.



Foton.jpg

LOL! Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups. And backups for the backups. :laughing::laughing:
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 1:27 PM Post #2,706 of 10,669
LOL! Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups. And backups for the backups. :laughing::laughing:
Ok this is not a doctored photo, just something for you to think about. It is what I have on the way. If it is from 71 as I suspect, that is not a bad year for a Melz 1578. Imagine Foton bass with mids that jump out at you and highs that must be in the spectrum somewhere.
Smooth grey plates, otherwise the attributes of the 1578.

71 melz solid plate.jpg.png

For those of you wondering about grey plates vs shiny black. Shiny black plates on a 58 Melz in the front. plates.jpg

Shiny black perforated plate of a Melz 1578 from 1963 in the front.perforated Melz 63.jpg
 
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Nov 26, 2020 at 1:55 PM Post #2,707 of 10,669
LOL! Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups. And backups for the backups. :laughing::laughing:
That is the fun thing about tube collecting, just when you think you know all the variables of a particular brand, something new shows up. If the grey solid plate is anywhere near as good as the 58's I will buy up all I can and dangle a loaner in front of @bcowen. :ksc75smile:
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 2:13 PM Post #2,708 of 10,669
LOL! Give me the 'Foton Bump' in the upper bass and a tad more harmonic depth and richness in the mids and I won't need to buy any more tubes again ever. Well, except some backups. And backups for the backups. :laughing::laughing:

I’ve had both an exhilarating and exasperating experience so far with a pair of ‘63 1578s from Paladin79, and if I read bcowen’s post correctly, the latter experience has been along the same lines as his. But my pair only have about 180 hours on them, which is not nearly enough to make any final evaluations or decisions. Rather, in the spirit of the request for Thanksgiving stories, I want to mention a cable, and I hope Palladin79 won’t object to my telling it.

While privately discussing the Melz, I asked Tom if he ever made umbilical cords. I have a Supratek preamp with a separate PSU, with an umbilical cable tying it to the main unit, which uses 6SN7s (part of a living room stereo speaker system). He hadn’t, but generously offered to make one for me with the same silver-plated copper wire that goes into his headphone amps. Now, the funny thing about this offer was that he doesn’t believe that such a power cord can make a difference in sound quality. Nor, in fact, does the preamp’s developer, to the degree that he threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used another than his (he eventually backed off and offered to “profusely apologize” if it makes a significant improvement). My experience had told me a different story, so we proceeded.

From the moment I first plugged it in, it was like I had upgraded the preamp to the model costing $1K more. Playing Agnes Obel’s Katie Cruel, from what had been a large soundstage blob, the music now just snapped into focus, with voice and electronics well placed and coherent. The only catch at that moment was the music was what I call pitch elevated, as if a piano standardly tuned at A above middle C had been tuned at the C above that. I guess that’s what is meant by bright. Based on other experiences, worry set in: would this right itself, when it hadn’t with other gear? Was the silver screwing things up? Well, 50 hours in the bass righted itself. All of a sudden, singer Andy Bey’s low notes went really low and became gravelly, until he ran out of breath. After that, the only thing left, other than the patience of a few hundred hours of the ups and downs of burn in, was to make sure the mids and uppers settled as well, that the tonality and a bit of warmth I like would be there. Now, a bit over 500 hours in, I can say everything seems in order. 6SN7 tubes like 1943 Ken-Rad’s sound dry and cool and voices not quite human, while a 1945 RCA pair sound as warm and (overly) euphonic, as advertised.

So in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I’m very grateful for having stumbled across this thread, the good advice and tales others contribute, and most of all for Palladin79’s presence here.
 
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Nov 26, 2020 at 2:34 PM Post #2,709 of 10,669
Happy Thanksgiving all. Let's celebrate by talking about turkey and tubes. I'll take the lead on tubes. Some of us have recently been provided with a pristine same of the 1958 Melz, no-holed plate, by Paladin for evaluation.
To that end my notes on said tube. (and other ramblings on sound related stuff - in a blabby mood today so far).
A fun and useful read, @FLTWS. In addition to the '58 & '63 being quite close, another takeaway is "...I moved that Melz over to my Incvbvs and wow what a difference. The richness of tone, the sense of air around the instruments, the roundness and sense of body given instruments, the deeper dimensions the Incvbvs gave the soundfield." Kudos to @Paladin79, and that settles it: no Schitt!

While we're sharing impressions, below is what I PM'd @Paladin after spending time with the '63 Melz pair he shared with me in FA Elise: "Had a 1st listen to the '63 MELZ and yes, I can already tell they are special. Using powers I know well that are clean and neutral, the Melz '63 preserve the frequency balance / technicalities (layering, stage, separation, detail) but add some magic, In particular, attack, decay and note weight (perhaps PRaT if you believe in such things) seem just right. The bass is just short of my KR VT-231's but may actually be more tuneful! I am a touch treble sensitive and these bring extension that never crosses over into strident. The mids are the one area I'm not sure of yet, seem a little dry but I must say they are really clean, not a touch of grain, just could benefit from a bit more euphony. All in all, these are keepers for me. "

Since that 1st impression I've changed powers to the slightly warmer GEC 6080 and these have imbued that hoped for euphony in the mids. Really enjoying these tubes in Elise,

Happiest thanksgiving to all!

LW

Turkey Wears Headphones.jpg
 
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Nov 26, 2020 at 2:45 PM Post #2,710 of 10,669
I’ve had both an exhilarating and exasperating experience so far with a pair of ‘63 1578s from Paladin79, and if I read bcowen’s post correctly, the latter experience has been along the same lines as his. But my pair only have about 180 hours on them, which is not nearly enough to make any final judgments or decisions. Rather, in the spirit of the request for Thanksgiving stories, I want to mention a cable, and I hope Palladin79 won’t object to my telling it.

While privately discussing the Melz, I asked Tom if he ever made umbilical cords. I have a Supratek preamp with a separate PSU, with an umbilical cable tying it to the main unit, which uses 6SN7s (part of a living room stereo speaker system). He hadn’t, but generously offered to make one for me with the same silver-plated copper wire that go in his headphone amps. Now, the funny thing about this offer was that he doesn’t believe that such a power cord can make a difference in sound quality. Nor, in fact, does the preamp’s developer, to the degree that he threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used another than his (he eventually backed off and offered to “profusely apologize” if it makes a significant improvement). My experience had told me a different story, so we proceeded.

From the moment I first plugged it in, it was like I had upgraded the preamp to the model costing $1K more. Playing Agnes Obel’s Katie Cruel, from what had been a large soundstage blob, the music now just snapped into focus, with voice and electronics well placed and coherent. The only catch at that moment was the music was what I call pitch elevated, as if a piano standardly tuned at A above middle C had been tuned at the C above that. I guess that’s what is meant by bright. Based on other experiences, worry set in: would this right itself, when it hadn’t with other gear? Was the silver screwing things up? Well, 50 hours in the bass righted itself. All of a sudden, singer Andy Bey’s low notes went really low and became gravelly, until he ran out of breath. After that, the only thing left, other than the patience of a few hundred hours of the ups and downs of burn in, was to make sure the mids and uppers settled as well, that the tonality and a bit of warmth I like would be there. Now, a bit over 500 hours in, I can say everything seems in order. 6SN7 tubes like a 1943 Ken-Rad pair sound dry and cool, while a 1945 RCA pair sound as warm and (overly) euphonic, as advertised.

So in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I’m very grateful for having stumbled across this thread, the good advice and tales others contribute, and most of all for Palladin79’s presence here.
You are most kind.
My background is in science and I have worked with most types of cables and wire known to man over the last 15 years so I am definitely opinionated about some things because of my training and experience.
That being said, what a person hears and enjoys is a very personal thing. In the case of tubes, I hate to say this tube is wonderful because I think this or that. Thus I call upon groups of people to give opinions and substantiate said opinions as best possible with my local audiophile group and some friends on here. Some of the Melz tubes can be tricky because of the solder the Russians used, I do my best to replace that but on occasion problems can arise regardless of my good intentions.
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 3:33 PM Post #2,711 of 10,669
Ok this is not a doctored photo, just something for you to think about. It is what I have on the way. If it is from 71 as I suspect, that is not a bad year for a Melz 1578. Imagine Foton bass with mids that jump out at you and highs that must be in the spectrum somewhere.
Smooth grey plates, otherwise the attributes of the 1578.

71 melz solid plate.jpg.png

For those of you wondering about grey plates vs shiny black. Shiny black plates on a 58 Melz in the front. plates.jpg

Shiny black perforated plate of a Melz 1578 from 1963 in the front.perforated Melz 63.jpg
Now that looks like an outcome of a Melz 1578 & Foton unwanted child from a wild orgy... Woodstock?
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 3:35 PM Post #2,712 of 10,669
I’ve had both an exhilarating and exasperating experience so far with a pair of ‘63 1578s from Paladin79, and if I read bcowen’s post correctly, the latter experience has been along the same lines as his. But my pair only have about 180 hours on them, which is not nearly enough to make any final evaluations or decisions. Rather, in the spirit of the request for Thanksgiving stories, I want to mention a cable, and I hope Palladin79 won’t object to my telling it.

While privately discussing the Melz, I asked Tom if he ever made umbilical cords. I have a Supratek preamp with a separate PSU, with an umbilical cable tying it to the main unit, which uses 6SN7s (part of a living room stereo speaker system). He hadn’t, but generously offered to make one for me with the same silver-plated copper wire that goes into his headphone amps. Now, the funny thing about this offer was that he doesn’t believe that such a power cord can make a difference in sound quality. Nor, in fact, does the preamp’s developer, to the degree that he threatened to cancel the lifetime warranty if I used another than his (he eventually backed off and offered to “profusely apologize” if it makes a significant improvement). My experience had told me a different story, so we proceeded.

From the moment I first plugged it in, it was like I had upgraded the preamp to the model costing $1K more. Playing Agnes Obel’s Katie Cruel, from what had been a large soundstage blob, the music now just snapped into focus, with voice and electronics well placed and coherent. The only catch at that moment was the music was what I call pitch elevated, as if a piano standardly tuned at A above middle C had been tuned at the C above that. I guess that’s what is meant by bright. Based on other experiences, worry set in: would this right itself, when it hadn’t with other gear? Was the silver screwing things up? Well, 50 hours in the bass righted itself. All of a sudden, singer Andy Bey’s low notes went really low and became gravelly, until he ran out of breath. After that, the only thing left, other than the patience of a few hundred hours of the ups and downs of burn in, was to make sure the mids and uppers settled as well, that the tonality and a bit of warmth I like would be there. Now, a bit over 500 hours in, I can say everything seems in order. 6SN7 tubes like 1943 Ken-Rad’s sound dry and cool and voices not quite human, while a 1945 RCA pair sound as warm and (overly) euphonic, as advertised.

So in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I’m very grateful for having stumbled across this thread, the good advice and tales others contribute, and most of all for Palladin79’s presence here.

This is why you need one of these. :laughing:

AudioDharma.jpg
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 3:37 PM Post #2,713 of 10,669
Nov 26, 2020 at 3:40 PM Post #2,714 of 10,669
A fun and useful read, @FLTWS. In addition to the '58 & '63 being quite close, another takeaway is "...I moved that Melz over to my Incvbvs and wow what a difference. The richness of tone, the sense of air around the instruments, the roundness and sense of body given instruments, the deeper dimensions the Incvbvs gave the soundfield." Kudos to @Paladin79, and that settles it: no Schitt!

While we're sharing impressions, below is what I PM'd @Paladin after spending time with the '63 Melz pair he shared with me in FA Elise: "Had a 1st listen to the '63 MELZ and yes, I can already tell they are special. Using powers I know well that are clean and neutral, the Melz '63 preserve the frequency balance / technicalities (layering, stage, separation, detail) but add some magic, In particular, attack, decay and note weight (perhaps PRaT if you believe in such things) seem just right. The bass is just short of my KR VT-231's but may actually be more tuneful! I am a touch treble sensitive and these bring extension that never crosses over into strident. The mids are the one area I'm not sure of yet, seem a little dry but I must say they are really clean, not a touch of grain, just could benefit from a bit more euphony. All in all, these are keepers for me. "

Since that 1st impression I've changed powers to the slightly warmer GEC 6080 and these have imbued that hoped for euphony in the mids. Really enjoying these tubes in Elise,

Happiest thanksgiving to all!

LW

Turkey Wears Headphones.jpg

Thanks for the listening notes!

And I love the pic! I had no idea there were headphones made specifically for @Ripper2860 . :grin::grin:
 
Nov 26, 2020 at 3:49 PM Post #2,715 of 10,669
A fun and useful read, @FLTWS. In addition to the '58 & '63 being quite close, another takeaway is "...I moved that Melz over to my Incvbvs and wow what a difference. The richness of tone, the sense of air around the instruments, the roundness and sense of body given instruments, the deeper dimensions the Incvbvs gave the soundfield." Kudos to @Paladin79, and that settles it: no Schitt!

While we're sharing impressions, below is what I PM'd @Paladin after spending time with the '63 Melz pair he shared with me in FA Elise: "Had a 1st listen to the '63 MELZ and yes, I can already tell they are special. Using powers I know well that are clean and neutral, the Melz '63 preserve the frequency balance / technicalities (layering, stage, separation, detail) but add some magic, In particular, attack, decay and note weight (perhaps PRaT if you believe in such things) seem just right. The bass is just short of my KR VT-231's but may actually be more tuneful! I am a touch treble sensitive and these bring extension that never crosses over into strident. The mids are the one area I'm not sure of yet, seem a little dry but I must say they are really clean, not a touch of grain, just could benefit from a bit more euphony. All in all, these are keepers for me. "

Since that 1st impression I've changed powers to the slightly warmer GEC 6080 and these have imbued that hoped for euphony in the mids. Really enjoying these tubes in Elise,

Happiest thanksgiving to all!

LW

Turkey Wears Headphones.jpg

This is what I PM'd @Paladin79 after I'd listened to the '58 Melz:

1) As I mentioned previously (and my thoughts haven't changed), this tube extracts low-level detail better than most anything I've heard. I don't mean in-your-face hyped up treble, I'm talking about the longer fade into complete silence of a note. The multiples of harmonics that accompany a note. The more individualized voices in the audience of a live recording. All those 'background' type things that happen and that you can hear in live music, but too often go missing in an audio system reproduction. Makes things more real, if you will.
2) Treble is extended and airy without ever being fatiguing or out of proportion.
3) Nice depth to the soundstage, especially compared to the Foton. Width is about the same, but the Melz is deeper and there is better imaging of performers in their own space.
4) Bass is nicely extended and has exceedingly good definition. It's missing that little bump in the upper bass that the Foton has. That may be a coloration of the Foton -- who knows -- but I like it as it seems to add a nice rhythmic quality to the music. Not that the Melz is necessarily deficient in this area, just that it's an area the Foton excels in and scores highly for my personal preferences.

I get a very slight hum in the Incubus with no signal and the volume control in the 2:00 - 4:00 position. Below 2:00 and above 4:00, totally silent. I still don't understand that 2:00 - 4:00 (minor) hum and then no hum from 4:00 to 5:00, but the Melz is not the only tube that does that. I don't listen above 12:00 on anything so it's irrelevant musically -- just a test observation.

The Melz is awesome with a TS 5998, Chatham 6AS7, RCA 6AS7GA, and the Mullard 6080. It's not the best combo with the Cetron 7236...that tube needs a really warm driver tube (the GEC L63's are heavenly with it). The Melz is more neutral to my ears -- slightly to the warm side of neutral, but just slightly.

So in all, nice find! I'd put this Melz in my (personal) top 5. I like it better than the holey plate Melz -- it's just more musical to my ears.
 

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