The Opamp thread
Jun 18, 2019 at 5:11 AM Post #6,676 of 7,383
You meant AD8620 in DAC differential opamp stage or in HO stage?
Differential.
Does A1 not even have a buffered out?
If its HO out is driven by opamp as an output stage, and you are not listening to 600Ohm impedance earphones, there's few good opamps to consider:
OPA1688, OPA1612, AD826, LM7332
 
Jun 18, 2019 at 5:23 AM Post #6,677 of 7,383
Does A (T)1 not even have a buffered out?
Honestly, I do not know. There is tube buffering stage but it is being applied only when using T1 as USB-sourced. If line-in is being used, then tube buffer is by-passed (You can even take tube out and LO(RCA) and HO are still working, if I remember correctly)... so, I assume HO is being driven only by opamp (NE5532 in stock)... LO then by OPA2134? Don`t know.
If its HO out is driven by opamp as an output stage, and you are not listening to 600Ohm impedance earphones, there's few good opamps to consider:
OPA1688, OPA1612, AD826, LM7332
I`ve already tried OPA1612 and it was quite good: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-opamp-thread.432749/page-441#post-14991863

Here are some pics or Aune T1 PCB and parts: http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/post/119072
 
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Jun 18, 2019 at 7:34 AM Post #6,678 of 7,383
It is always going to be subjective but I don't like the OPA2132/2134 personally - they perform well enough but I always feel like somehow they make the music boring like someone playing the same tune for the 1000th time, accurate but with none of the passion of the first few times.

Can't remember if I've tried the LM7332 or not but I have various LM6xxx (such as the 6172) and 7xxx opamps and find them generally not optimal for audio use - a lot of them are design focussed for things like ADSL drivers and seem to use some kind of crude mechanisms for boosting slew rates or output current that work very well for their intended application but have negatives for audio and can also be quite picky about the circuit they are in becoming unstable very easily with many of them having specific notes about avoiding oscillation in the datasheet.

I'd definitely second checking out more of the AD series if you have the funds/time - the AD8066 as I've mentioned is one of my all time favourites and the 8620 is good.
 
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Jun 18, 2019 at 8:56 AM Post #6,679 of 7,383
AD8066 has even higher operating supply current demand and max dual-power supply is +-12V ...again, not sure if it is compatible in dac differential stage.
Any help with specs needed/not needed for opamp to work there without issues?
AD8066 though is noticeably cheaper than AD8620. That wouldn`t hurt my wallet if it is not compatible or doesn`t improve sound quality to my ears.

When I started to try out opamps in Aune T1, first thing I looked for was AD/ADA series opamps but most of them doesn`t seem to fulfill specs of OPA2134 drop-in replacement...
 
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Jun 19, 2019 at 4:06 PM Post #6,681 of 7,383
According to NwAvGuy,

“…there’s little reason for a manufacturer to not to use an ideal op-amp. For another they likely have $50,000+ worth of test instrumentation and can precisely measure differences between op amps. They also designed the circuit the op-amp is in, so they better know what requirements matter most. But it seems a lot of audiophiles only see an inexpensive op-amp on a circuit board that needs replacing. They may not understand the rest of the circuit, have any way to know if they’re creating new problems, etc.”

In my experience this has been the case. Sometimes I will “get lucky” and op amp rolling with op amp that fits the specific board other times like a heart transplant it will reject it.

The best method I’ve actually find to be the most beneficial is using a cross reference tool that gives you an accurate swap or list of op amps that are compatible from highest to lowest.

In my experience it isn’t as simple as “plug and play” and often requires some adjustments.

When DIYERs make arbitrary modifications based on what they have read or datasheets it is still doesn’t warrant their success!

Circuitry is part art and part theory. Unless you really know what you are doing or have $50,000 worth of testing equipment it’s hard to what you doing or claiming to be true is actually true.

The advantage of being a diy is that you can make a sound all your own. When you compare a dap that cost say $60 to say one that cost a couple of hundreds of dollars is that very little. But It’s the things that make the biggest difference. My only compliment about them is that I can’t mod them they way I want them to sound!

Even with high impedience headphones, I’ve gotten daps to play 5x their cost but when it comes to complete silence with zero crossfeed even the so-called “expert” Diyers haves issues with ground noise. It’s for this reason that a silenced low noise dap cost what they cost; you pay for the expertise, the hardware and software!

I yearn for the day Topping makes a portable Music Player as rarely use my desktop to listen to music all of the time.

I have one of their daps and they nicely made!
 
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Jun 19, 2019 at 4:30 PM Post #6,682 of 7,383
Getting low noise is an interesting one - as well as good understanding from a design/engineering perspective such as understanding the nature of current paths, etc. there are all kind of little bits of esoteric knowledge, that an experienced engineer might know, that can make the difference that aren't necessarily intuitive or obvious from a design perspective at all.

You could follow every guide on good circuit design to the letter of the book but just moving where a screw goes through the board a couple of mm even could have an impact.
 
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Jun 19, 2019 at 5:34 PM Post #6,683 of 7,383
Getting low noise is an interesting one - as well as good understanding from a design/engineering perspective such as understanding the nature of current paths, etc. there are all kind of little bits of esoteric knowledge, that an experienced engineer might know, that can make the difference that aren't necessarily intuitive or obvious from a design perspective at all.

You could follow every guide on good circuit design to the letter of the book but just moving where a screw goes through the board a couple of mm even could have an impact.

Not to mention and endless amount of money to experiment if they work for the huge companies! In the audiophile world lots of business go out of business since the demand isn’t high for a niche market. That’s why prices are so high and there’s a much larger diy community. Large semiconductor companies who make op amp like TI and AD often pander to bulk rates since it gives them free advertising when a dap becomes successful in a manufactures design or it develops a cult following in the diy community from subjective op amp rolling.

The current thing is interesting. I would imagine using the correct amount of film caps would work since if offsets current/voltage filters and allows sound to pass through. I’m sure this can also done with firmware engineering. There are designs that offer a combo of film caps coupled with aluminum ones to cut down on cost with the similar results.

I’d also remark it’s not “intuition.” Daniel Kahnman wrote a book about this in his book Think Slow and Fast! It’s rather deliberate practice which is the ability to accurately find problems, work them out and know how to fix them. So it’s not just the 10,000 hour rule as a accurate benchmark. Check the research out yourself.

Trained engineers can build designs from Scratch so they know the ins and outs of their designs. When you are adding parts to an existing design you don’t have such an intuition so-to-speak. That’s why is great idea to practice off boarding a learn how each circuitry works in-conjunction how it corresponds with the entire dap holistically. That’s the only way to gain intuition heuristics in any process you are willing to learn.

It also doesn’t hurt when you have access to $50,000 worth of testing equipment to identify accurate performance problems and the know how to fix them.
 
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Jun 19, 2019 at 6:56 PM Post #6,684 of 7,383
Well, goodbye ADA4075 in my O2's voltage gain, hello OPA1692. Just wow.
dat AD8022 bass, though, gotta love dat bipolar midrange, too
 
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Jun 19, 2019 at 8:14 PM Post #6,685 of 7,383
Well, goodbye ADA4075 in my O2's voltage gain, hello OPA1692. Just wow.
dat AD8022 bass, though, gotta love dat bipolar midrange, too

Have not tried nor used the O2 design by this is what the designer said is THE best for voltage Stage is to use the NJM 4556. I love to try this op amp.

Apparently all the NJM Audio engineers made some pretty great op amps designed for audio with high current and low distortion that the unknown creator of the O2 is high on. The best part is they are dirt cheap!

It’s also important to note that a lot of the MUSES are fancied up NJM designs so I’ve read.

"NJM4556 OP AMPS: The NJM4556 op amps, by far, work the best in this design. No other dual DIP8 op amp can deliver even close to as much current at as low of distortion. Few op amps are made for driving headphones but the NJM4556 is. It also works well paralleled and not all op amps do. The TLC2062 is an acceptable substitute for headphones 32 ohms or higher and also provides about 3 times longer battery life. See: Low Power Option. The RC4580 is a very distant third if have no other choice.”

I’ve often seen this from some Diyers on this thread about gain settings and in turn become enraged by their blind arrogance to the said info. I don’t believe in pure gain as a panacea.

O2 designer also says this which I happen to agree with as a rule of thumb in regards to gain. You can ALWAYS use a DAW limiter to your mod you files which essentially doesn’t the same thing and is safer. One word of causation anytime you use a limiter you are essentially compressing your files. But you can alway lower the dbs and double the tracks to make them fuller. This is also true when you want to add more fullness to crappy mp3. Some programs and apps can to this in real time with meta-data.

Here’s what O2 designer says:

“THE GAIN RESISTORS: Before you solder in the four gain resistors by the gain switch, you might want to consider different gains than the approximately 2.5X and 6.5X default values. You want just enough gain so typical music plays loudly enough with your headphones and source and not much more. Extra gain means using less of the volume control’s range, more noise, more distortion, and makes accidental headphone damage more likely. Here’s what you need to know about calculating gain:

Lower Is Safer - Lower gain settings make the amp less likely to damage headphones by limiting the maximum output voltage to only approximately what’s needed.
Lower is Cleaner – As shown in the first article, there’s a slight increase in distortion, especially at high frequencies at higher gain settings. Lower gains also result in lower noise.“
 
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Jun 20, 2019 at 4:22 AM Post #6,686 of 7,383
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Jun 20, 2019 at 10:07 AM Post #6,687 of 7,383
Have not tried nor used the O2 design by this is what the designer said is THE best for voltage Stage is to use the NJM 4556. I love to try this op amp.

Apparently all the NJM Audio engineers made some pretty great op amps designed for audio with high current and low distortion that the unknown creator of the O2 is high on. The best part is they are dirt cheap!

It’s also important to note that a lot of the MUSES are fancied up NJM designs so I’ve read.

"NJM4556 OP AMPS: The NJM4556 op amps, by far, work the best in this design. No other dual DIP8 op amp can deliver even close to as much current at as low of distortion. Few op amps are made for driving headphones but the NJM4556 is. It also works well paralleled and not all op amps do. The TLC2062 is an acceptable substitute for headphones 32 ohms or higher and also provides about 3 times longer battery life. See: Low Power Option. The RC4580 is a very distant third if have no other choice.”

I’ve often seen this from some Diyers on this thread about gain settings and in turn become enraged by their blind arrogance to the said info. I don’t believe in pure gain as a panacea.

O2 designer also says this which I happen to agree with as a rule of thumb in regards to gain. You can ALWAYS use a DAW limiter to your mod you files which essentially doesn’t the same thing and is safer. One word of causation anytime you use a limiter you are essentially compressing your files. But you can alway lower the dbs and double the tracks to make them fuller. This is also true when you want to add more fullness to crappy mp3. Some programs and apps can to this in real time with meta-data.

Here’s what O2 designer says:

“THE GAIN RESISTORS: Before you solder in the four gain resistors by the gain switch, you might want to consider different gains than the approximately 2.5X and 6.5X default values. You want just enough gain so typical music plays loudly enough with your headphones and source and not much more. Extra gain means using less of the volume control’s range, more noise, more distortion, and makes accidental headphone damage more likely. Here’s what you need to know about calculating gain:

Lower Is Safer - Lower gain settings make the amp less likely to damage headphones by limiting the maximum output voltage to only approximately what’s needed.
Lower is Cleaner – As shown in the first article, there’s a slight increase in distortion, especially at high frequencies at higher gain settings. Lower gains also result in lower noise.“

4556 is good (very good) for driving actual current demanding headphones but personally, despite having seen all the measurements, I don't rate them for stuff like the Sennheiser HD600 which like a reasonable amount of voltage and voltage "response" - while it does happen rarely I definitely catch some mid-range congestion at times and upper range vocals tend to be slightly coloured and harder to tell gender (I haven't noticed these things with lower impedance, higher current demanding headphones). The RC4580 is actually pretty decent - not exceptionally so - but a workhorse in most parameters with nothing terribly wrong, quite transparent even if a little lacking in "musicality" and well suited to audio use plus usually cheap as cheap - I wouldn't use one really for enthusiast application but it is an excellent choice for mass market consumer audio i.e. hanging off a 16bit/48KHz DAC dongle or embedded solution, etc.

A lot of fake "MUSES" opamps BTW seem to be re-badged 4556 or 4580s.
 
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Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Post #6,688 of 7,383
A lot of fake "MUSES" opamps BTW seem to be re-badged 4556 or 4580s.

True but it’s also true that MUSES are made by the same manufacturer: New Japan Radio.

I’m sure that they share a lot in common. Would be interesting to know what the differences are and if you could make alterations to a dap to get a similar “MUSE sound” with caps and resistors tuned proper.

(MUSES/Nichicon Also make capacitors that are like 1.50 each which can be coupled by film caps to reduce noise and strengthen the signal)

Ive tried the caps and they sound very nice giving the op amps warmer, musical sound. More warmer bass sound but lack a bit of clarity. They could be a nice counterbalance to the NJM 4556 harshness and with a better signal you’ll get that spacious details.

It’s hard to believe that the NJM 4556 makes vocal gender ambiguous though...
 
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Jun 20, 2019 at 11:19 AM Post #6,689 of 7,383
Yeah, it`s really great opamp I think(hear) :wink:
I tried ADA4841 in a Minibox-E+ years ago, quite the incredible sound, very analogue-like with warmth that's "just right".
I think I have 4897 somewhere put away, I haven't tried it yet, I should give it a go in my P3+.
 
Jun 20, 2019 at 11:42 AM Post #6,690 of 7,383
I tried ADA4841 in a Minibox-E+ years ago, quite the incredible sound, very analogue-like with warmth that's "just right".
I think I have 4897 somewhere put away, I haven't tried it yet, I should give it a go in my P3+.
I use ADA4841 in DAC differential + 2x ADA4897 in HO with my DX50 - wonderful result! So detailed and powerful/tight sounding combination (ADA4897 outputs 80mA).
You should really give ADA4897 a chance :wink:
 

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