[taktik]

Why would anyone be bothered with "what the artist intended" if you don't enjoy it? Are you insulting the artist by listening to their music in a manner that you personally enjoy?

You can listen music the way you want as an individual. Of course. And you are not insulting the musician adding 10 dB to the bass. But it's not what we are talking about here, at least what I'm talking about. My concern is the role of a reviewer. Why are we looking to the measurements if they mean nothing ? And if they mean something, can a reviewer recommend a headphones with very uneven FR (speaking only about FR to simplify the discussion) ?

 

[ubs28]

The harman response curve is probably trying to create a fake neutral sub bass since we cannot feel sub bass with our bodies using headphones like with speakers.

But I don't see the point of it, because with headphones you are simply missing the physical feel of sub bass. So no matter how much you artificially boost the sub bass, you won't get the bass of speakers as bass is only perceived with the ears using headphones.

 

[EDN80]

I have a question. If Tyll or Jude said a particular headphone measured badly and when you listen to it, you find it incredible and very enjoying. Would you walk away from the headphone because they gave it bad reviews or measured badly?

My personal response would be a resounding NO! No amount of curves, measurements, or berating by "enlightened" reviewers would make me walk away from a sound I like. Enjoyed my K812s, enjoying my Z1Rs.

Listening right now... amazing...

I'm new here, and I absolutely don't know who is who and who is vernacular. I'm only exposing my point of view, and immediately face a strong and unexpected level of aggressiveness. English is not my native language and perhaps my words were not well chosen. Don't worry, I won't stay long in such a hostile atmosphere.

The point is though why are you arguing at all if you've not heard these headphones yourself? That's bizarre.

I call it the Tyll effect. Emboldened by Tyll's measurements and reviews, they will dismiss and trash a pair of headphones because they don't "measure up" on paper, and some will do it without even having heard said heaphones!

Crazy world we live in.

 

[headr]

Strange, isn't it? People parade around these "reference curves" which are based entirely on people's preferences, then turn around and say that all preferences are invalid because accuracy is king. It's a certain ironic level of cognitive dissonance that is totally lost on them.

I'm reminded of a saying. Imagine a person of average intelligence. Then imagine that half the people are dumber than that. I have to imagine the same applies to listening preferences as well. And this is the lofty infallible unquestioned ideal that so called objectivists parade around to tell us that we are wrong for liking our headphones.

I am not even sure these people listen to music. Perhaps they only listen to graphs? I challenge all Z1R owners to listen and not stop their feet. If you have a high quality source, that would work better.

 

[rnros]

I'm new here, and I absolutely don't know who is who and who is vernacular. I'm only exposing my point of view, and immediately face a strong and unexpected level of aggressiveness. English is not my native language and perhaps my words were not well chosen. Don't worry, I won't stay long in such a hostile atmosphere.

Your English is fine. That's not the issue.

Try to imagine how absurd this discussion is for some of us, a little bit of "Waiting For Godot" for the headphone community.
If I sat enjoying glasses of Latour and Haut Brion you would not hesitate to argue the qualities of the wines based only on... having read a review!?
Or perhaps advising me on the subtleties of a Graves vs a Pauillac based on a description you read?

I don't believe it's hostility for someone who owns and enjoys the Z1R, to question your strict assessment of the Z1R which apparently is only based on reading reviews.

 

[KarlStromberg]

Too much bass, recessed high-medium, veiled and zingy sound. Are these really TOTL headphones ?

Except for the "zingy" this pretty much sums up the impressions I had when I heard them. For me they weren't TOTL headphones, but more like really beautiful and well manufactured cans with what I would describe as a Sony fun sound signature.

 

[greggf]

So who decided TOTL should not be a "fun sound" signature?

You know, the opposite of fun is . . . drudgery.

So who decided what TOTL entails? Who said it should be like a studio monitor? I wasn't invited to vote. Was it in a religious text? Is it under glass at M.I.T.?

Why shouldn't TOTL mean "WOW! The most FUN!"

Do you win points in heaven for pursuing nothing but "accuracy" and denial-of-pleasure in this life? If your headphones follow some magical mystical mystery "accuracy" curve (one as yet undecided, btw, because it can't be, because healthy and full human beings are subjective creatures), does the artist whose original intent you honor so much send you a royalty check?

 

[beingbuddha]

Every night I sit for 30 minutes and read through this thread after the measurement controversies with my Z1R's and I'm drenched in my classical music or whatever genre that I throw into the Z1R's and TA-ZH1ES. Yes if I do switch headphones for a moment, I feel like everything is subdued but within 2 minutes, I'm lost again in my music. At the end, the clarity,separation and the right amount of bass (my opinion is bass makes music come to life) makes these a great all rounder. Yes agree sometimes, it does loses some characters in some songs, but I cannot co-relate to the opinion of Tyll ( I greatly respect) but may be my sense of enjoyment differs from him. My music preference matches with what @Currawong reviewed his z1r as well as campfire vega.

 

[pietcux]

Here is a Z7 review from Z Review that I really dig, that guy has a very nice approach, he listens and tells you what he feels and not what he measures.





Subjectivism alert!!

 

[Brooko]

[Mod Comment]

Same people doing same things - more posts removed, more warnings given.

Read the posting guidelines people (please) : https://www.head-fi.org/f/articles/posting-guidelines.14048/

The ones who have been warned repeatedly and continue to break the rules - I am recommending to the Moderation team that we start removing people's access from the thread.

 

[nanaholic]

You can listen music the way you want as an individual. Of course. And you are not insulting the musician adding 10 dB to the bass. But it's not what we are talking about here, at least what I'm talking about. My concern is the role of a reviewer. Why are we looking to the measurements if they mean nothing ? And if they mean something, can a reviewer recommend a headphones with very uneven FR (speaking only about FR to simplify the discussion) ?

They mean something, but that meaning is different for each individual.

For example let's stick to FR as per your request, as you said Tyll openly admits he likes 3dB of boosted bass in his phones. Great, and all the power to his subjective preference and honesty and quantifying it in a meaningful way. But then who's there to say 10dB of boosted bass is then objectively wrong/incorrect/underperforming/insert whatever negative description? Is it not merely yet another subjective preference? If you can follow up to here, then you'll understand why people coming here and showing us the graph and say "you are crazy to pay this price for a headphone that has a non-neutral headphone because it isn't TOTL performance" is so not constructive to the discussion.

The FR graph only does two things - first is to show the accuracy (or distortion/flavouring/EQing, if you will) to the original sound. Second is as a guide to how that that correlates to your own personal preferences. A person who is a basshead can look at that 10dB and say "aha! I'm probably going to like this!", which is then useful and informative information. But taking that measurement and going around telling people their subjective preference is wrong? That's NOT the purpose of such graphs and measurements.

 

[pedalhead]

You chaps do understand that people can be interested in how a headphone measures, and still maintain a subjective opinion on the sound, right? Furthermore, someone else's opinion, whether part based on measurements or not, doesn't negate your own.

In other words, don't be a precious snowflake. If someone else doesn't like your headphone, suck it up buttercup. You probably don't like theirs either. Groupthink (and perhaps audiophilia nervosa) are the banes of this hobby.

 

[nc8000]

You chaps do understand that people can be interested in how a headphone measures, and still maintain a subjective opinion on the sound, right? Furthermore, someone else's opinion, whether part based on measurements or not, doesn't negate your own.

In other words, don't be a precious snowflake. If someone else doesn't like your headphone, suck it up buttercup. You probably don't like theirs either. Groupthink (and perhaps audiophilia nervosa) are the banes of this hobby.

It is fine that they say they don't like it. It is not fine to say in so many words that those who do like it are somehow fooled and deluded idiots who have not seen the true light or to tell those who have not tried it that because I don't like it you should not try it.

Likewise those that do like it should not call those that don't idiots.

Let everybody like what they like, express opinios but don't behave as iy you have the only truth

 

[yakitoroi]

Every night I sit for 30 minutes and read through this thread after the measurement controversies with my Z1R's and I'm drenched in my classical music or whatever genre that I throw into the Z1R's and TA-ZH1ES. Yes if I do switch headphones for a moment, I feel like everything is subdued but within 2 minutes, I'm lost again in my music. At the end, the clarity,separation and the right amount of bass (my opinion is bass makes music come to life) makes these a great all rounder. Yes agree sometimes, it does loses some characters in some songs, but I cannot co-relate to the opinion of Tyll ( I greatly respect) but may be my sense of enjoyment differs from him. My music preference matches with what @Currawong reviewed his z1r as well as campfire vega.

Like what you said, I still can't believe there is still a fuss. Some folks are waiting on measurements for what? To say that they are bad? Measurements will not change the fact that these are my teleportation device to the magic land of music. The bass on the z1r adds emotion to the song.

 

[taktik]

The FR graph only does two things - first is to show the accuracy (or distortion/flavouring/EQing, if you will) to the original sound. Second is as a guide to how that that correlates to your own personal preferences. A person who is a basshead can look at that 10dB and say "aha! I'm probably going to like this!", which is then useful and informative information.

This is almost exactly what I've said in my answer to you (previous page, post #10843)

But taking that measurement and going around telling people their subjective preference is wrong? That's NOT the purpose of such graphs and measurements.

Of course not, and I've never said such a thing. As I repeated it, the consumer is free to find the good fit for his taste. But as a reviewer, you can't say that a headphones with major flaws is great considering that some people may like it. That's all I say. I will not enter the false debate "accuracy against pleasure" as I consider this opposition as a nonsense and a pure smoke screen.