[vc1187]

  As for looking for a sound, I'm really happy with the BH Crack for the HD-800 at this point and even if I had the funds to get one of those $3000+ amps it would go to wine first

. 

 
I like the order of your priorities 

 

[Shetzu]

Well Im the Odd one out as I believe HD800 dosent need these massive Amps, its just a Hugh misunderstanding, but preferring a particular Sound signature is a different story, IMO.
Keep your sanity and keep what you have, Ifi is more than enough for HD800.. Just my opinion.

If you want to go full retard spending big money on desktop Amps you might aswell go the Stax route.

I will take your advice and hang onto my iCan for at couple of years. I too thought so because I like the sound and it sounds fantastic. It is just that man is never satisfied and we all look for that extra edge so perhaps I have carried off like the rest to have tube amp on the long run for which I have come to realise that iFi has the iTube which can be linked to the iCan as a buffer and improve  the sound a bit more. Just my thought. 
But music to ones ears is subjective and cannot be defined. So saying why people invest in big amps is their decision just like you have to yours.  I am  an live example and witness to most expensive amps and dacs and I can tell you that they do make a difference or else all these companies would shut down.
 
Here are the pics of High end audio I had chance to audition.
 

 

 

 

 
It is a hobby and some like to build their setup and enjoy music the way they like  so why pass judgements. Lets all enjoy and listen to good music. Cheers

 

 

[Oregonian]

Originally Posted by ****zu /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  Sorry Is should have been more specific about my budget. it is upto $1100-1200 My friend is buying the Liquid Gold and the Abyss. I am sure I will get to audition them. He currently is parting away with his Auralic Stack (Taurus+Vega) and his WA22. I had the privilege to hear them all . Wow. 

Have you considered a vintage speaker amp?  You can get a powerhouse receiver/integrated amp for less than $500 that will make the HD800 sing and with the tone controls and/or loudness switch makes the bass incredible on these wonderful headphones.  I was considering selling my HD800 till I spent last night with them out of my Pioneer Spec system..........taking them off the market now. 
 
I am an admitted vintage fan but can't see spending well over a grand on headphone specific amps when you can get such quality and dynamics with the added benefits of being able to hook up speakers as well.  Just my opinion, of course, but I can't imagine any headphone sounding better than this. 

 

[vc1187]

That Sophia 274b is a beautiful rectifier, and I bet it sounds great in the Woo setup.

 

[Shetzu]

 
Have you considered a vintage speaker amp?  You can get a powerhouse receiver/integrated amp for less than $500 that will make the HD800 sing and with the tone controls and/or loudness switch makes the bass incredible on these wonderful headphones.  I was considering selling my HD800 till I spent last night with them out of my Pioneer Spec system..........taking them off the market now. 
 
I am an admitted vintage fan but can't see spending well over a grand on headphone specific amps when you can get such quality and dynamics with the added benefits of being able to hook up speakers as well.  Just my opinion, of course, but I can't imagine any headphone sounding better than this. 

Yeah That is a great idea. I am open to anything of course not high cost though. How ever I am going to try my floor speaker receiver amplifier and see how things go. But I still am happy with my iFi iCan Micro amp which drives the 300 ohms HD very very well and  at 1/4 volume to 1/2 volume  it is perfect for my ears. I ha hd plans to buy a bigger setup but many of my colleagues and friends told me to hang on for a while  till I have got used to my hd 800 a bit and then build around it. So I plan to take this advice for now and not invest immediately. Thanks for your inputs though.

 

[JamieMcC]

 
Got to hear the HD-800 on a Mainline and it was really good, better than the Crack but still not at the ECBA or Liquid Glass level.  So if you say the BH SEX is that much better than the Crack I will see if I can audition one, might be another nice project.  Is your BH SEX completely stock?  I haven't done anything to my BH Crack except change the tubes, TS-5998 and Telefunken 12AU7.

 
You do know the ECBA is about four times the price of a Bottlehead Mainline. When you add in some good tubes its getting close to $5k!
 
Ok I was struggling a bit getting my head round your evaluation/comparison of the stock Crack to the ECBA. The stock Crack and hd800 really didn't float my boat when I was using them. I did own both a stock Crack and a modified one at the same time in the past and really thought there was little comparison between the two. The Stock Crack seemed slow and murky compared to the performance from the modified one.
You might want to think about doing some upgrades to your Crack spending as little as $100 will do wonders for the HD800

 and make a very noticeable difference.
 
My Sex amp has a few modifications, a nice stepped attenuator with both course 6db and fine 1db adjustments along with a choked power supply and Jupiter HT beeswax/paper capacitors in the signal path. Sound staging and resolution leaves the modded Crack for dust.
 
The Mainline is stock except for a pair of 10uf RTI Teflon and tin foil capacitors (originally made for Audio Research amps) and thoroughly out performers all the above especially when it comes to resolution and natural tone/timbre.
 
Mainline
 

 

 
Sex
 

 

 
Crack (stock & modded)
 

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[vc1187]

All of the pictures in the above post were beautiful, but what really stood out in beauty to me was the GEC 6AS7G.
 
I do believe that this makes me unusual 

 

 

[Shetzu]

Wow That looks awesome.

 

[DavidA]

@JamieMcC, I've seen your BH amps in the BH thread and they are really works of art and really push the envelope of modding.  I would love to do even a small percentage of what you have accomplished but my focus is going away from headphones.
 
If you read my post I'm really happy where I am right now with what I have and don't plan anymore "upgrades" since I use my speakers most of the time and my priorities have gone away from headphones to things like wine, golf, travel and just spending time with my GF & her friends.  The other reason is since I'm getting older I know my hearing is or will start to deteriorate it so makes no sense to try and improve what I have if I can't notice the difference. 
 
The comment that the BH Crack to me was 95% of the ECBA showed me that my hearing may not good enough to notice what you say should be a fairly large difference but to me that difference is not that large, our perceptions are different and its our individual measuring stick assigning a value to it.  As a example: some say the difference between 128 MP3 and WAV is huge while others say its very slight, who is correct? to me both are correct because that is how they perceive that difference.
 
Anyway, sorry for my rant, back to the HD-800

cheers and hope all are having a great weekend

 

[jibzilla]

   
I personally don't agree with this. You don't need distinctly expensive gear to make the HD800 sound good. An HD800 with cheaper source/amp is going to be better than, say, a $600 headphone with an expensive source/amp. The transducer is by far the most important part of the signal chain, and one of the best headphone transducers in the world (the HD800) will sound excellent even without extremely expensive gear to go along with it. Will it sound better with nicer gear? Sure, but the expensive gear is in no way a prerequisite.
 
 

 
I used to have the same mind set as you. That the driver was the most important. After much trial and error I came to the conclusion that was wrong and it really depended on the driver itself as far as which way to go.
 
There are not many headphones out there like the hd800 other than some beyers. Their driver really benefits from something with ohm output and most ohm output amps are expensive. The hd800 really scales well with this equipment though and thus an expensive amp is very much worth it. In the hd800's drivers case I would say $1k is just the starting point and $5k around where you should start thinking of an sr-009.
 
The sr-007 is also very amplifier dependent as well. There was a very large difference going from the 727ii to the kgsshv. The sr-009 hardly a difference at all and most lucky 009 and 007 owners will tell you they can not pick a favorite with a b.h.s.e. in place. Where the 009 scales is in the source. I would have no issues with someone who put $20k, well over what the 009 costs into the source.
 
$600? I will go $400 and take the hd600, which pretty much sounds identical to the hd800 just less refined, and a mainline over a hd800/magni. If your on a tight budget after the initial hd800 purchase just get the hd600 and a good amp and source. The hd600 is very much at home in a $1500 amp/dac setup.

 

[JaZZ]

  There are not many headphones out there like the hd800 other than some beyers. Their driver really benefits from something with ohm output and most ohm output amps are expensive. The hd800 really scales well with this equipment though and thus an expensive amp is very much worth it.

 
You can add resistors in series with your headphone with all amps. Almost for free. There's nothing special with «ohm output» headphone amps. Some (OTL) tube amps have it by design, others add it to build up good synergy with a specific headphone (HDVD 600/800 and HD 800). It's in fact a cheap trick. And it's not ideal in the case of the HD 800 – which would benefit more from an increase below its resonance frequency than at its resonance frequency. The latter just compromizes transient response instead of really equalizing the frequency response.
 
Much of the legend about the «hard to drive» HD 800 has its cause in the bright characteristic calling for a compensating amp. Hence one that's not exactly neutral. And (therefore) most likely not exactly the best when it comes to transparency and accuracy.
 
Better than relying on questionable cheap tricks is to use an equalizer for the same purpose. Which enables you to use a more neutral and accurate amp. Maybe it isn't even too expensive. If your DAC can drive headphones directly, for instance, it's even free of charge.

 

[Currawong]

Sure, you don't *need* any fancy amp to drive the HD800s. BUT, this hobby isn't about "need", it's about enjoyment, and this is an impressions thread! 

 

[JaZZ]

  Sure, you don't *need* any fancy amp to drive the HD800s. BUT, this hobby isn't about "need", it's about enjoyment, and this is an impressions thread! 

 
Of course it's about enjoyment, and that's not so much dependent on the price of the amp – according to my experience. I've heard quite some headphone amps and ended up with one that costs 20% of the most expensive one I've auditioned. Not because it's the best in every single sonic criterion, but all in all it is closest to my sonic ideal: neutral and unvarnished. It's the Corda Symphony – not in production anymore. The funny thing: I don't need it anymore.
 
Once you've heard a wire without gain instead of an amp, you'll agree with me that amps are overrated. But first you have to free yourself from the need for component synergy. As stated above, a neutral and accurate amp most likely won't sound best with the HD 800. So how can the sonic product of the combo be ideal if your ideal is highest transparency and accuracy?
 
So my approach is to equalize. The HD 800 can use some boost in the low bass (like most headphones, BTW) and some decrease of the 6 kHz range (roughly spoken). And all of a sudden the need for a dark and full sounding amp is gone.
 
To be fair: with expensive amps you get higher likelyhood for higher transparency. But there may be exceptions which could save you money and in turn offer even higher accuracy, if you're lucky. I've lost the overview over the current headphone amp offers, so can't give corresponding advice. But one thing is certain: If you're lucky and own a DAC capable of driving headphones directly (I'm thinking of the Chord lineup), you can get along very cheap.
 
This of course if your sonic ideal also boils down to highest possible transparency. The HD 800 is a headphone able to make you approach this goal according to my listening experience. And I guess many of the owners have chosen it for its high transparency and relative neutrality. So far there's only one other (ortho)dynamic headphone I prefer to it from this perspective (among the headphones I've auditioned).

 

[Taowolf51]

   
You can add resistors in series with your headphone with all amps. Almost for free. There's nothing special with «ohm output» headphone amps. Some (OTL) tube amps have it by design, others add it to build up good synergy with a specific headphone (HDVD 600/800 and HD 800). It's in fact a cheap trick. And it's not ideal in the case of the HD 800 – which would benefit more from an increase below its resonance frequency than at its resonance frequency. The latter just compromizes transient response instead of really equalizing the frequency response.
 
Much of the legend about the «hard to drive» HD 800 has its cause in the bright characteristic calling for a compensating amp. Hence one that's not exactly neutral. And (therefore) most likely not exactly the best when it comes to transparency and accuracy.
 
Better than relying on questionable cheap tricks is to use an equalizer for the same purpose. Which enables you to use a more neutral and accurate amp. Maybe it isn't even too expensive. If your DAC can drive headphones directly, for instance, it's even free of charge.

 

   
Of course it's about enjoyment, and that's not so much dependent on the price of the amp – according to my experience.
 
So my approach is to equalize. The HD 800 can use some boost in the low bass (like most headphones, BTW) and some decrease of the 6 kHz range (roughly spoken). And all of a sudden the need for a dark and full sounding amp is gone.
 

 
Said it better than I could have myself, thank you.
 
To add, I've heard the HD800 on a wide variety of amps ranging from an android phone all the way to the WA234 Mono (which certainly fits the "expensive" bill). Do expensive amps sound awesome with the HD800's? Of course! The 234 Mono was the best I had ever heard the HD800 sound. But, are the HD800's crippled in any way compared to the more expensive amps? Of course not. Cheaper amps can make the HD800 sound excellent, and adding well implemented equalization boosts the sound quality considerably.
 
As far as high output impedance amps go, the Crack is 120 ohm, which is pretty damn high and isn't very expensive at all. But, I intentionally stayed away from that amp because of its high output impedance. Looking at the HD800's impedance graph, a high output impedance wouldn't change the signature for the better to my ears, and (like you said), a more linear amp with a well implemented parametric EQ will get me far closer to my ideal.
 
It's a shame, though, I LOVE the look of the Crack (with a few tweaks) and really enjoyed building my Quickie. If I do ever have a few hundred bucks burning a hole in my pocket, I may give it a try just to get a taste of the relaxed transient response (which isn't what I would want for every day listening, but might be nice once in awhile).
 

But I think one thing to take away from this whole conversation in general is the fact that everyone has different tastes, and we have amps that provide different flavors to different people. Jibzilla prefers higher output impedance amps and their sonic sound, while others such as yourself prefer a more neutral sound. It's why we should be more inclusive and not try to apply our tastes and preferences on others, as we may not share them. If people are happy, we should be happy.

 

[johnjen]

My own 2¢ on expensive vs less expensive amps.

Ofttimes the simplest circuit can yield incredible sonic results, if it's well designed and uses 'optimal' parts based upon the design.
The Crack is one such design as are the Garage 21, and the Schiit amps.
And I'm sure there are others as well.

But there are ALWAYS trade offs.
And we each are willing to trade one set of practical, functional, or sonic attributes for another.

But usually what bigger $$ yields are increases in stability and consistency and scaleability, to name a few.

And of course there is the whole, 'tweak it till it bleeds' aspect.
For some that is a major portion of the fun and enjoyment of the hobby.

For me I chose an ultra stable and 'non-changing' amp that is as repeatable in it's operation, and is as simple, in terms of the signal path, as can be, given its design.

It is MASSIVE overkill in terms of power, but that is not really an issue to me.
It’s the design, functionality and implementation, that is what attracted me to it.
And it scales really well, which is another primary consideration in terms of 'qualifying' for consideration.

Technical details such as power, S/N, THD, etc are also well down on the list.
But there were some technical aspects that were significant, such as output impedance, channel tracking, circuit stability etc. as these give me a clue as to the amp's performance while normally operating, but also how it will do so in the long run.

And of course being able to help 800's achieve new levels of acoustic performance is also right at the top of the list… :atsmile:

JJ