[jibzilla]

   
You can add resistors in series with your headphone with all amps. Almost for free. There's nothing special with «ohm output» headphone amps. Some (OTL) tube amps have it by design, others add it to build up good synergy with a specific headphone (HDVD 600/800 and HD 800). It's in fact a cheap trick. And it's not ideal in the case of the HD 800 – which would benefit more from an increase below its resonance frequency than at its resonance frequency. The latter just compromizes transient response instead of really equalizing the frequency response.
 
Much of the legend about the «hard to drive» HD 800 has its cause in the bright characteristic calling for a compensating amp. Hence one that's not exactly neutral. And (therefore) most likely not exactly the best when it comes to transparency and accuracy.
 
Better than relying on questionable cheap tricks is to use an equalizer for the same purpose. Which enables you to use a more neutral and accurate amp. Maybe it isn't even too expensive. If your DAC can drive headphones directly, for instance, it's even free of charge.

 
I'm not much for equalizing. I have always found some give and take with budget and totl. My approach is to find the best that I can within a certain budget in sound quality, build quality and comfort in that order, but all fairly close together.
 
You have a point with the ohm output. At the same time it does not change the fact that most ohm output amps are pricey. Just me but I do not think Pete Millet and Doug Savitsky are throwing cheap tricks into their amplifiers and they offer up their builds for free as well if one wants to save money. At least to me that is allot of confidence in what they are doing.
 
Are there some ripoff artists out there in headphone amp world. Oh yeah I'm with ya on that. But I put allot more faith Bottlehead, Apex and soon to be ECP with the hd800 than I do Hifiman (HE1k) and Jps labs (Abyss). 

 

[JamieMcC]

   
 
Said it better than I could have myself, thank you.
 
To add, I've heard the HD800 on a wide variety of amps ranging from an android phone all the way to the WA234 Mono (which certainly fits the "expensive" bill). Do expensive amps sound awesome with the HD800's? Of course! The 234 Mono was the best I had ever heard the HD800 sound. But, are the HD800's crippled in any way compared to the more expensive amps? Of course not. Cheaper amps can make the HD800 sound excellent, and adding well implemented equalization boosts the sound quality considerably.
 
As far as high output impedance amps go, the Crack is 120 ohm, which is pretty damn high and isn't very expensive at all. But, I intentionally stayed away from that amp because of its high output impedance. Looking at the HD800's impedance graph, a high output impedance wouldn't change the signature for the better to my ears, and (like you said), a more linear amp with a well implemented parametric EQ will get me far closer to my ideal.
 
It's a shame, though, I LOVE the look of the Crack (with a few tweaks) and really enjoyed building my Quickie. If I do ever have a few hundred bucks burning a hole in my pocket, I may give it a try just to get a taste of the relaxed transient response (which isn't what I would want for every day listening, but might be nice once in awhile).
 

But I think one thing to take away from this whole conversation in general is the fact that everyone has different tastes, and we have amps that provide different flavors to different people. Jibzilla prefers higher output impedance amps and their sonic sound, while others such as yourself prefer a more neutral sound. It's why we should be more inclusive and not try to apply our tastes and preferences on others, as we may not share them. If people are happy, we should be happy.

 
 
The impedance figures given for the Crack are based on the 6080 tube which comes with the kit  but you can effectively drop the Cracks output impedance to around 70ohms by using the Tungsol 5998 its also a cool looking tube.  I used some 42ohm ATH-W1000X for a while with mine I found them a enjoyable listen with the 5998 tube but switching to the 6080 tube the sound was noticeably degraded particularly in the bass department.
 
7802   MU 9 / transconductance 20000
WE 421A   MU 5.9 / transconductance 18000
5998A   MU 5.4 / transconductance 15500
5998   MU 5.5 / transconductance 14000
7236   MU 4.8 / transconductance 12500
6080   MU 2.0 / transconductance 7000
 
 

 

[JaZZ]

  I'm not much for equalizing. I have always found some give and take with budget and totl. My approach is to find the best that I can within a certain budget in sound quality, build quality and comfort in that order, but all fairly close together.
 
You have a point with the ohm output. At the same time it does not change the fact that most ohm output amps are pricey. Just me but I do not think Pete Millet and Doug Savitsky are throwing cheap tricks into their amplifiers and they offer up their builds for free as well if one wants to save money. At least to me that is allot of confidence in what they are doing.
 
Are there some ripoff artists out there in headphone amp world. Oh yeah I'm with ya on that. But I put allot more faith Bottlehead, Apex and soon to be ECP with the hd800 than I do Hifiman (HE1k) and Jps labs (Abyss). 

 
Your ears are the judge. Actually I wasn't talking of rip-offs in the context of high output impedances and headphone amps generally, just that the way to increase the HD 800's bass is a cheap trick with a not so audiophile/perfectionist result. But it does work in its own way, that's not disputed. My main motive was to disenthrall the «ohm output» from the magical thinking around it. A high serial resistance just modulates the frequency response according to the headphone's impedance response, and that's it. In the case of the HD 800...
 


...it creates a 100 Hz hump in the first place. A questionable improvement even with the HD 800, and it will be even more questionable when you inted to use other headphones with corresponding amps. Particularly if you take into consideration that it also weakens the damping of the fundamental resonance. The good thing about it may be that it makes the bass a bit Grado-like.

 

 

[DavidA]

@JamieMcC what are the output impedance for the other tubes you listed?
 
7802   MU 9 / transconductance 20000
WE 421A   MU 5.9 / transconductance 18000
5998A   MU 5.4 / transconductance 15500
5998   MU 5.5 / transconductance 14000  ~70 ohm
7236   MU 4.8 / transconductance 12500
6080   MU 2.0 / transconductance 7000 ~ 120 ohm

 

[JamieMcC]

  @JamieMcC what are the output impedance for the other tubes you listed?
 
7802   MU 9 / transconductance 20000
WE 421A   MU 5.9 / transconductance 18000
5998A   MU 5.4 / transconductance 15500
5998   MU 5.5 / transconductance 14000  ~70 ohm
7236   MU 4.8 / transconductance 12500
6080   MU 2.0 / transconductance 7000 ~ 120 ohm

It was only a rough guide rather than a exact figure, I have not checked the figures for myself but remembered seeing the list posted on the Bottlehead forum a while back. While the Crack works its best with high impedance headphones it can still be enjoyable to use with headphones with lower impedance ratings the cravat being you pair it with a suitable tube.

 

[DavidA]

 
It was only a rough guide rather than a exact figure, I have not checked the figures for myself but remembered seeing the list posted on the Bottlehead forum a while back. While the Crack works its best with high impedance headphones it can still be enjoyable to use with headphones with lower impedance ratings the cravat being you pair it with a suitable tube.

Would it follow that the higher MU number will have a lower impedance based on the 5998 and 6080?  Reason is that with a 421A even Grado's sound good on the Crack so it might be that the output impedance might be lower than the 70 of the 5998, taking a WAG here

.

 

[JamieMcC]

  Would it follow that the higher MU number will have a lower impedance based on the 5998 and 6080?  Reason is that with a 421A even Grado's sound good on the Crack so it might be that the output impedance might be lower than the 70 of the 5998, taking a WAG here

.

That was my interpretation

 

[jibzilla]

   
Your ears are the judge. Actually I wasn't talking of rip-offs in the context of high output impedances and headphone amps generally, just that the way to increase the HD 800's bass is a cheap trick with a not so audiophile/perfectionist result. But it does work in its own way, that's not disputed. My main motive was to disenthrall the «ohm output» from the magical thinking around it. A high serial resistance just modulates the frequency response according to the headphone's impedance response, and that's it. In the case of the HD 800...
 


...it creates a 100 Hz hump in the first place. A questionable improvement even with the HD 800, and it will be even more questionable when you inted to use other headphones with corresponding amps. Particularly if you take into consideration that it also weakens the damping of the fundamental resonance. The good thing about it may be that it makes the bass a bit Grado-like.

 

 
Whatever. Like I said if not the ohm output the amps themselves seem to synergize with the hd800 and your not going to find any Mainline, Stratus or Teton owners that say otherwise. Know of an headphone ohm output amp that was not voiced with the hd800 or maybe k1000 in mind?

 

[deuter]

Slightly off topic, oh wait it is the hd800 thread .

I have a fairly high end setup with a current mode headphone amp.

I believe that's not ideal for headphones with high impedance, firstly is That right ?
I noticed yesterday the mid bass was too muddy without definition would this be a cause of the headphones being driven by a current mode amp ?

 

[johnjen]

Current amps do better with HP's with flat impedance curves which the HD 800-700-650-600 etc don't have.
It's not a matter if the cans are high or low impedance.

Planars are your best bet.

JJ

 

[deuter]

Current amps do better with HP's with flat impedance curves which the HD 800-700-650-600 etc don't have.



Planars are your best bet.



JJ

 


Ok, not really the answer I was looking for as I do have the HD800.

 

[Tom Khuu]

Hey guys, my current setup is Val2/Bifrost Uber > HD650 and I'm thinking of upgrading to the HD800 with the same amp/dac which I'm sure will pair great with it.
My only fear is the kind of music I'm listening to. I mostly listen to Vietnamese Yellow songs. Can you guys tell me how these sound?
Sorry if it sounds foreign to you, it's just a very unique genre that I really like.
 
http://chiasenhac.com/mp3/vietnam/v-pop/noi-lai-tinh-xua~bang-tam-dan-nguyen~1187305.html
 
http://chiasenhac.com/mp3/vietnam/v-pop/lien-khuc-tinh-nguoi-ky-nu~truong-vu-che-linh-che-phong~1182324.html
 
http://chiasenhac.com/mp3/vietnam/v-pop/phut-cuoi~che-linh-thanh-tuyen~1042559.html
 
 
These are the kinds of song I listen to most, tell me what you guys think of it on the HD800
Thanks for reading.

 

[sheldaze]

  Hey guys, my current setup is Val2/Bifrost Uber > HD650 and I'm thinking of upgrading to the HD800 with the same amp/dac which I'm sure will pair great with it.
My only fear is the kind of music I'm listening to. I mostly listen to Vietnamese Yellow songs. Can you guys tell me how these sound?
Sorry if it sounds foreign to you, it's just a very unique genre that I really like.
 
http://chiasenhac.com/mp3/vietnam/v-pop/noi-lai-tinh-xua~bang-tam-dan-nguyen~1187305.html
 
http://chiasenhac.com/mp3/vietnam/v-pop/lien-khuc-tinh-nguoi-ky-nu~truong-vu-che-linh-che-phong~1182324.html
 
http://chiasenhac.com/mp3/vietnam/v-pop/phut-cuoi~che-linh-thanh-tuyen~1042559.html
 
 
These are the kinds of song I listen to most, tell me what you guys think of it on the HD800
Thanks for reading.

Not going to comment on your music selection - other than I'm quite a fan of the video collection Paris by Night.
I'm also a fan of Lâm Thúy Vân, and in particular her rendition of Em Về...
 
The setup you mention is one of the best entry points to the HD800 - a Bifrost and Valhalla 2. Whether or not you like it is more based on your personal tastes and becomes a lot more to do with the entire chain, including the production quality of the music and the DAC.  As I'm sure you're aware, there are two upgrades possible for the Bifrost, beyond the Uber. I'm currently using the 4490 with HD650 headphones, and it is fine. But the HD800 is that much more demanding (rewarding?) so you might consider going all the way to the Multibit. I know for me personally, I could not discern much difference going to Multibit (at one point in my past) when I was still using the HD650 headphones. Yes, I could hear it - but it was not a night and day difference. Using other headphones in my setup, the difference was much more noticeable. And I think this will be true for you, if you invest in HD800.
 
So if you invest in the headphone upgrade, such as you find a great deal on a pair of HD800 (used) but find you do not like it - could be your DAC - could be the production quality of your music. But I seriously suggest you ask yourself if a DAC upgrade is a possibility along with your headphone upgrade. You may find yourself wanting the improved DAC after upgrading your headphones to the HD800. You may also find yourself disliking the details in some of the more poorly produced songs, songs which you once enjoyed. Are you planning to keep your HD650 so as to continue to enjoy those songs?

 

[Tom Khuu]

Oops, I have the HD600, not the HD650. And regarding to me keeping it after purchasing the HD800, well that depends. I've heard the HD800 being better then the HD600, but is harsh on songs with poor recording so there might be a place for my HD600 to stay. And as for my DAC, I think it's fine to keep the same setup I have now. Before the Multibit upgrade was out, the Val/Bifrost was consider a decent setup for the HD800 by reviewers, so I'm not too worried about my amp/dac combo being the problem. What I concern most is whether the type of songs I'm listening to would be good with the HD800.
I might down the road look into buying an LCD-2 based on reviewers saying that it's good contrast to the HD800. So maybe sell my HD600 for another project? I don't know, only time will tell I guess.

 

[sheldaze]

  Oops, I have the HD600, not the HD650. And regarding to me keeping it after purchasing the HD800, well that depends. I've heard the HD800 being better then the HD600, but is harsh on songs with poor recording so there might be a place for my HD600 to stay. And as for my DAC, I think it's fine to keep the same setup I have now. Before the Multibit upgrade was out, the Val/Bifrost was consider a decent setup for the HD800 by reviewers, so I'm not too worried about my amp/dac combo being the problem. What I concern most is whether the type of songs I'm listening to would be good with the HD800.
I might down the road look into buying an LCD-2 based on reviewers saying that it's good contrast to the HD800. So maybe sell my HD600 for another project? I don't know, only time will tell I guess.

HD800S is an easier transition, especially from the already pretty accurate HD600. If you can make that stretch (for more money for the newer HD800S), I'd say go for it!
 
However, LCD-2 would be better on Lyr 2. HD800/HD800S should be fine on Lyr 2 as well.