[paradoxper]

actually I do indeed have thick skin and my feelings are certainly not hurt...that said, I enjoy coming here because I love the hobby and it is a retreat from the nonsense of the outside world so I apologize if I over reacted

If you're good, I'm good, we're good.

 

[jlbrach]

we good!

 

[MacedonianHero]

we good!

Lol, I'm good too!

Paradoxper: I'm curious if you've heard the MySphere3 and how they compare? My time with the SR1a is rather limited in comparison to the MySphere's and it would help me better understand where you're comments are coming from? Thanks!

That said, the Phi TC are still very much one of only a few select headphones that I call "the best I've heard".

 

[ken6217]

And so that concludes the newest addition of Peyton Place.

 

[paradoxper]

Lol, I'm good too!

Paradoxper: I'm curious if you've heard the MySphere3 and how they compare? My time with the SR1a is rather limited in comparison to the MySphere's and it would help me better understand where you're comments are coming from? Thanks!

I never had the interest to bother. Lack of belief it would somehow bring better articulation with palpable bass. Now you've baited me.

And so that concludes the newest addition of Peyton Place.

There's always Coronation Street.

 

[JLoud]

All this talk of the SR1a with Jot going for $3000 used has me interested. I saw one listed that low and it was gone before I could even send a pm. If someone sees another come up for that give me a shout.

 

[jlbrach]

that is the sale I was referring to,as one who is lucky enough to have sampled and owned almost all of the TOTL HP's I find 3K for the combo to be a veritable bargain

 

[Brahmsian]

Hello Brahmsian, I mostly listen jazz and classic music, lately I have been listening to a lot of chamber and orchestral music. I’d say the TC is great for all these genres and particularly for orchestral music. It is very detailed, it has a wide and deep soundstage, a neutral sound profile which is important to reproduce acoustic instruments and, importantly, it has the “slam/weight” to convey the feeling or orchestral sections in action. However it needs to be well amplified. I used it for some months amplified with a Dave and it is pretty good in general but severely lacking for music with high dynamic range.
Since I moved to my current set up (see the first posts in the thread about Riviera AIC-10) I practically only listen to classic music also because it is reproduced in such an engaging, lively way.
In this thread you will find many suggestions at all price points to amplify well the TC.
I also have an Utopia which is very good for classic thanks to the great instrument separation but cannot really compete with the TC for symphonic music.

Regarding the HD800(S) (I tried both versions), I didn't do a direct comparison with the TC but heard it a few times in the past. It needs to be well amplified as well to deliver. Out of a Hugo2 it was not particularly impressive (except soundstage width), much better with a small but more powerful tube amp.
It is an excellent headphones but I'd say the TC is better in many ways and probably similar only in terms of soundstage width. For me the key advantage of the TC is the feeling of impact, body conveyed which is missing from the Senn. Also the Senn places you a bit further away from the scene, the TC more in the middle of it, maybe less realistic but it contributes to a more visceral listening experience.
I hope it helps

The wide and deep soundstage is what originally piqued my interest regarding these headphones. I heard Joe mention ”infinite space” or something like that.

Thanks for comparing them to the 800. If the TC is more visceral, that is definitely preferable to me.

Nice to hear from someone who listens to classical. My experience with headphones so far is that just because one model sounds good with popular music does not necessarily mean it sounds good with orchestral and vice versa. A lot of audio reviewers don't even mention classical or just refer to it in passing. I know most people don't listen to it, but it should be an important test when judging high-end audio IMO.

 

[BPED]

The wide and deep soundstage is what originally piqued my interest regarding these headphones. I heard Joe mention ”infinite space” or something like that.

Thanks for comparing them to the 800. If the TC is more visceral, that is definitely preferable to me.

Nice to hear from someone who listens to classical. My experience with headphones so far is that just because one model sounds good with popular music does not necessarily mean it sounds good with orchestral and vice versa. A lot of audio reviewers don't even mention classical or just refer to it in a passing way. I know most people don't listen to it, but it should be an important test when judging high-end audio IMO.

A couple of further thoughts: bass is definitely better with the TC. Whenever needed it goes lower and it has more physical presence (e.g. plucked basses, cello, tympani). With the right amp you also keep it tight and well defined: paradise
Regarding soundstage, I've come to think that our brain plays a big role in the way we perceive it. Otherwise I cannot explain how people here refer to "infinite", "huge", "like a concert hall" etc. In my experience the TC will still give you a headphones' soundstage. Is it good? Yes, compared to other cans it is excellent, probably the best (bar Raal?) But it is still like listening to a miniature representation of the orchestra. Once you accept that, you are in for a treat. Still nowhere near speakers soundstage not to mention the real thing.
Also, you may want to try the Abyss before purchasing because they are very heavy and with a tricky fit. The HD800 are definitely a easier headphones to wear.

 

[FLTWS]

Even in the concert hall I find imaging specificity and sound stage creation are a much more nebulous concept than as described by many when listening to HP's or speakers. All I have to do is close my eyes and listen for several minutes from anywhere out in the hall to hear how different it sounds. And "brain involvement" may be it's attempt to reconcile what we perceive and know is different about "live" versus "reproduced" sound. And how many recordings, and I'm referring to classical music in halls or on sound stages, are actually made with the intent of capturing the sound stage? It also seems the more mics and "highlighting" used the less likely to get a good sound stage. As for music recorded in typical studios I have no point of reference having never attended a recording session.

Trying to verbalize what the ear/brain perceives can also be a part of the issue as well. Describing aural subtleties is not easy and in an attempt to get across some sound characteristics a listener may experience might take a little "emphasis".

 

[Kukuk]

Has anyone used or ordered from Corpse Cable? Are they reputable? I want to have a spare cable for these, but I refuse to spend $800 for a replacement stock cable. I might be tempted to get a Silver Dragon one, but even that's out of my comfort zone.

 

[Brahmsian]

Even in the concert hall I find imaging specificity and sound stage creation are a much more nebulous concept than as described by many when listening to HP's or speakers. All I have to do is close my eyes and listen for several minutes from anywhere out in the hall to hear how different it sounds. And "brain involvement" may be it's attempt to reconcile what we perceive and know is different about "live" versus "reproduced" sound. And how many recordings, and I'm referring to classical music in halls or on sound stages, are actually made with the intent of capturing the sound stage? It also seems the more mics and "highlighting" used the less likely to get a good sound stage. As for music recorded in typical studios I have no point of reference having never attended a recording session.

Trying to verbalize what the ear/brain perceives can also be a part of the issue as well. Describing aural subtleties is not easy and in an attempt to get across some sound characteristics a listener may experience might take a little "emphasis".

Totally agree with you about concert halls and imaging as well as classical music recordings. And just as with a good speaker setup, a lot depends on where in the concert hall you sit. I find that the sweet spot, the seats that make you go wow, are usually orchestra level a little toward the back. No surprise that they are also the most expensive. Sitting too close to the stage isn't as impactful in my experience.

Orchestral recordings are often not very reflective of soundstage, which, as you point out, isn't even that present in the concert hall. And as you also point out, there are drawbacks with placing too many mics to record an orchestra. What I value more is visceral impact, that energy and rush, like a sonic wind, that you get in the hall when you have a good seat and that some orchestral recordings can convey, as well as a sense of depth. Good headphones can reproduce both, and it sounds like the TC has that in spades.

 

[BPED]

Even in the concert hall I find imaging specificity and sound stage creation are a much more nebulous concept than as described by many when listening to HP's or speakers. All I have to do is close my eyes and listen for several minutes from anywhere out in the hall to hear how different it sounds. And "brain involvement" may be it's attempt to reconcile what we perceive and know is different about "live" versus "reproduced" sound. And how many recordings, and I'm referring to classical music in halls or on sound stages, are actually made with the intent of capturing the sound stage? It also seems the more mics and "highlighting" used the less likely to get a good sound stage. As for music recorded in typical studios I have no point of reference having never attended a recording session.

Trying to verbalize what the ear/brain perceives can also be a part of the issue as well. Describing aural subtleties is not easy and in an attempt to get across some sound characteristics a listener may experience might take a little "emphasis".

I experienced similar things during concerts...
I believe that when discussing hi-fi, we are actually discussing fidelity in relation to what the music producer decided to put in a record, not in relation to the musical event (live or studio). Btw that's also why with good gear some pop music sounds pretty bad and certainly worse than with portable/average gear - it has been "manufactured" that way.

Sticking to the theme of soundtstage and imaging in recorded music, there is no way to bypass the double "filter" of mic choices and mixing. Sometimes those can add something to the listening experience: a carefully placed mic can bring out some instruments that would be difficult to precisely locate and hear live (but the risk of a "hyper-realistic" effect is always there). As for the negatives, I will mention a personal obsession: jazz drum spanning from extreme left to extreme right in so many records... Why??? Nobody (not even the drummer) has ever hear that that in real life.

 

[FLTWS]

@BPED , Piano's get stretched across the stage in many recordings as well, making the balance all out of proportion with the accompaniment and venue its recorded in. And what pianist sits with his back to the audience / listeners (in a chamber setting or with orchestra) with the lower registered keys well left and the higher keys well right?

@Brahmsian, right again, out in the hall the sheer volume of air the sound is working into blends the individual sounds and coupled with the acoustic properties of the hall builds support somehow to generate that impact at all frequencies. That's why, to my ears, HP's never impress me with impact the way speakers do and speakers in a typical room can't compete with the concert hall. There's something about "real" dynamic range (it doesn't matter the genre of the music being listened to) of live presentation that trounces reproduced sound. The ability to sound loud is not what its about and measurements just don't capture what one experiences live.

 

[Brahmsian]

I experienced similar things during concerts...
I believe that when discussing hi-fi, we are actually discussing fidelity in relation to what the music producer decided to put in a record, not in relation to the musical event (live or studio). Btw that's also why with good gear some pop music sounds pretty bad and certainly worse than with portable/average gear - it has been "manufactured" that way.

Sticking to the theme of soundtstage and imaging in recorded music, there is no way to bypass the double "filter" of mic choices and mixing. Sometimes those can add something to the listening experience: a carefully placed mic can bring out some instruments that would be difficult to precisely locate and hear live (but the risk of a "hyper-realistic" effect is always there). As for the negatives, I will mention a personal obsession: jazz drum spanning from extreme left to extreme right in so many records... Why??? Nobody (not even the drummer) has ever hear that that in real life.

”when discussing hi-fi, we are actually discussing fidelity in relation to what the music producer decided to put in a record, not in relation to the musical event.”

That can't be stressed enough. Related to that is a mistake I tend to make even though I know better, which is to conclude that a headphone or speaker system sounds bad when really the problem is the recording. Just last night I was judging a new pair of headphones by playing the Manze Brahms symphony cycle and thinking they sounded kind of flat. I then listened to the Rattle recording of the same symphonies and the sonics were much better, or at least they played better on that headphone.

As for hyper-real effects, sometimes they do add to the experience. Granting that a recording can't perfectly reproduce the live event, there is something to be said playing to the medium’s strengths and doing things that you can't do live. But there’s a fine or rather blurry line, largely subjective, between what may sound really cool and just ending up with something that sounds totally unnatural.

@Brahmsian, right again, out in the hall the sheer volume of air the sound is working into blends the individual sounds and coupled with the acoustic properties of the hall builds support somehow to generate that impact at all frequencies. That's why, to my ears, HP's never impress me with impact the way speakers do and speakers in a typical room can't compete with the concert hall. There's something about "real" dynamic range (it doesn't matter the genre of the music being listened to) of live presentation that trounces reproduced sound. The ability to sound loud is not what its about and measurements just don't capture what one experiences live.

Agree. On the other hand, I have also encountered the opposite: having a really bad seat at the venue and, on top of that, listening to music that is not too dynamic to begin with and thinking ”This sounds better at home.” In my thirties, I attended back to back seasons. I went to as many classical music concerts and operas as I could, sometimes to multiple performances of music I really liked, and ended up spending about three grand. As I said, those good seats come at a price. I feel that a good home system is good enough that it is a viable alternative to going live all the time. And much less of a hassle.