[matthewhypolite]

If the original Phi was your dream, why does the TC matter in terms of your enjoyment at all? Do you need the latest Macbook or iPhone when even models from 3-4 years ago are perfectly usable? The fact that other companies are on slower release schedules has no bearing on what Abyss does, and since the CC is mostly a cosmetic upgrade, the Phi driver has been around for ~2.5 years before the TC release. Is that faster than many companies? Yes. Does it now mean that you can't enjoy the CC's? No.

I like the idea of taking resale value into consideration when buying equipment. But at some point you have to admit that you just rolled the dice wrong for once, and it's much, much more likely that you'll take a hit on resale value if you insist on the latest and greatest. As one example - if you bought a used OG 1266 instead of the Phi, you'd hardly be losing any money on the sale and still be able to enjoy one of the best headphones on the planet.

Was just about to say the same thing re:driver.

The phi cc was jsut a cosmetic upgrade. With pads available to anyone who wanted to buy them. Same driver. The phi was the first abyss driver upgrade, which was made available to everyone who wanted to upgrade to them. All in all the TC is the first real new non upgradable headphone since the OG.

As far as I'm aware there was no upgrade path offered by Audeze for any of their cans. And hifiman offered an upgrade to hekv2 only for a select few lucky individuals that were selected randomly from the thread (I being one)

So I think jps has done a good job balancing consumers best interest with providing the upgrades and releasing their latest technology.

The OG was released 2013 I believe ?
So it's been 6 years since that abyss has offered something that you couldn't upgrade to.

I do understand that some folks who jsut got the Phi may feel slighted and as far as I understand Joe is dealing with these folks on a case by case basis . And if someone buys the lcd4 today, and the lcd5 launches tomorrow, I'm not sure Audeze will do the same. And for the folks who bought the lcd4 today, it wouldn't matter how long the cans were around if a new version drops tomorrow.

Think we need to cut jps some slack. Just my 2 cents.

 

[szymonsays]

Was just about to say the same thing re:driver.

The phi cc was jsut a cosmetic upgrade. With pads available to anyone who wanted to buy them. Same driver. The phi was the first abyss driver upgrade, which was made available to everyone who wanted to upgrade to them. All in all the TC is the first real new non upgradable headphone since the OG.

As far as I'm aware there was no upgrade path offered by Audeze for any of their cans. And hifiman offered an upgrade to hekv2 only for a select few lucky individuals that were selected randomly from the thread (I being one)

So I think jps has done a good job balancing consumers best interest with providing the upgrades and releasing their latest technology.

The OG was released 2013 I believe ?
So it's been 6 years since that abyss has offered something that you couldn't upgrade to.

I do understand that some folks who jsut got the Phi may feel slighted and as far as I understand Joe is dealing with these folks on a case by case basis . And if someone buys the lcd4 today, and the lcd5 launches tomorrow, I'm not sure Audeze will do the same. And for the folks who bought the lcd4 today, it wouldn't matter how long the cans were around if a new version drops tomorrow.

Think we need to cut jps some slack. Just my 2 cents.

Looking at this thread, I do think Joe and Abyss appear to be a great and supportive company and it was really nice of them to offer the original 1266 owners a chance to upgrade to the Phi for quite some time. However, if Audeze were to launch the LCD-5 tomorrow, i'm fairly certain (based on my experiences with them - they have the best customer support service in the headphone industry) they would allow customers who purchased an LCD-4 within a day (or even a month) a chance to return them and upgrade to the LCD-5. If i were to buy a new LCD-4 today and the LCD-5 came out tomorrow, i wouldn't have been too disappointed as it has been over three years since the LCD-4 came out.

 

[tholt]

I think the issue all the Phi CC owners are having is that Abyss has released an upgraded driver in such a short time span, especially when there was mention on this very thread that there would be no further versions of the Phi CC. If you look at Audeze, the LCD-4 was released in 2015 and there hasn't been a futher upgrade yet (the 4Z doesn't count as it had no intention of replacing the LCD-4); with Focal, the Utopia was released in 2016 and nothing has been announced yet; with Sennheiser, the HD800S was released in 2015... you get the idea. This whole ordeal reminds me of what Hifiman has been doing. I do agree that its great that companies are continuously looking to upgrade their gear, but if you keep releasing newer items in such a short time span it can leave a bit of bitter aftertaste. We aren't talking about cars, computers, phones, etc where you expect to see a new model each year, these are Hi-Fi headphones and i certainly haven't seen many companies upgrading their flagship models on a yearly basis.

I can understand how some of the posters may feel in this thread. I certainly wouldn't be too happy if Abyss releases a Diana Phi TC in the next few months especially when the Diana Phi was only announced in October 2018, and i just bought the Diana Phi a month ago.

Was just speaking with a friend about this last night. My big issue is that there is no UPGRADE path anymore, like there was with the OG to the Phi. Even that was $1500 just to replace drivers (cough) but it was a lot better than having to sell off perfectly good, still relatively new very expensive TOTL cans at typically a big loss (> $1k), just to turn around and spend full price on a new set of cans. That's a gut punch. And then a new release comes along in a relatively short time and you have to agonize about doing it again... Seems like a lot of wasted money just to keep up. If Abyss continues to upgrade, and more power to them, it would be good to figure out an upgrade path instead of expecting their loyal fan base to keep throwing money down the drain and ponying up for a brand new set of headphones.

In general, I think an upgrade path is always appreciated by consumers. It's not a stranger to this hobby, many many companies offer that path.

 

[szymonsays]

Was just speaking with a friend about this last night. My big issue is that there is no UPGRADE path anymore, like there was with the OG to the Phi. Even that was $1500 just to replace drivers (cough) but it was a lot better than having to sell off perfectly good, still relatively new very expensive TOTL cans at typically a big loss (> $1k), just to turn around and spend full price on a new set of cans. That's a gut punch. And then a new release comes along in a relatively short time and you have to agonize about doing it again... Seems like a lot of wasted money just to keep up. If Abyss continues to upgrade, and more power to them, it would be good to figure out an upgrade path instead of expecting their loyal fan base to keep throwing money down the drain and ponying up for a brand new set of headphones.

In general, I think an upgrade path is always appreciated by consumers. It's not a stranger to this hobby, many many companies offer that path.

I think it was already very nice of Abyss to allow that upgrade in the first place as very very few companies do this. I'm sure they had their reasons for not upgrading to the TC (? different driver and chassis dimensions perhaps). Technology will always improve, but my only issue would be if a company was upgrading their flagship headphone on a very frequent basis (e.g. yearly or even less than 2 years) as this is not commonly seen in this hobby.

 

[matthewhypolite]

Looking at this thread, I do think Joe and Abyss appear to be a great and supportive company and it was really nice of them to offer the original 1266 owners a chance to upgrade to the Phi for quite some time. However, if Audeze were to launch the LCD-5 tomorrow, i'm fairly certain (based on my experiences with them - they have the best customer support service in the headphone industry) they would allow customers who purchased an LCD-4 within a day (or even a month) a chance to return them and upgrade to the LCD-5. If i were to buy a new LCD-4 today and the LCD-5 came out tomorrow, i wouldn't have been too disappointed as it has been over three years since the LCD-4 came out.

Well yes, once it's within their established return window. They would take the cans back and u just purchase another. But that's not what I meant lol. Talking about upgrade path outside of standard returns.

 

[szymonsays]

Well yes, once it's within their established return window. They would take the cans back and u just purchase another. But that's not what I meant lol. Talking about upgrade path outside of standard returns.

I understand what you meant and i was under the impression that your time window was a bit of an exageration lol However, i don't think new LCD-4 buyers would be as slighted to hear a new version had come out (even outside the return window) as it has been over three years since the LCD-4 came out. I remember reading the Hifiman thread when a newer version of the HE-1000 came out in such a short time span, and all the angry responses which i think were justified as this hobby doesn't usually see flagship headphones replaced that quickly with a newer version.

 

[franz12]

Was just speaking with a friend about this last night. My big issue is that there is no UPGRADE path anymore, like there was with the OG to the Phi. Even that was $1500 just to replace drivers (cough) but it was a lot better than having to sell off perfectly good, still relatively new very expensive TOTL cans at typically a big loss (> $1k), just to turn around and spend full price on a new set of cans. That's a gut punch. And then a new release comes along in a relatively short time and you have to agonize about doing it again... Seems like a lot of wasted money just to keep up. If Abyss continues to upgrade, and more power to them, it would be good to figure out an upgrade path instead of expecting their loyal fan base to keep throwing money down the drain and ponying up for a brand new set of headphones.

In general, I think an upgrade path is always appreciated by consumers. It's not a stranger to this hobby, many many companies offer that path.

Hifiman can provide an upgrade path because it is based on cheap Chinese labor.
For Abyss, I think it is almost impossible because its manufacturing is based on US labor, which costs whole lot more. Also, Abyss is a small company. Small companies need a healthy profit margin to sustain their business.

 

[506638]

If the original Phi was your dream, why does the TC matter in terms of your enjoyment at all? Do you need the latest Macbook or iPhone when even models from 3-4 years ago are perfectly usable? The fact that other companies are on slower release schedules has no bearing on what Abyss does, and since the CC is mostly a cosmetic upgrade, the Phi driver has been around for ~2 years before the TC release. Is that faster than many companies? Yes. Does it now mean that you can't enjoy the CC's? No.

I like the idea of taking resale value into consideration when buying equipment. But at some point you have to admit that you just rolled the dice wrong for once, and it's much, much more likely that you'll take a hit on resale value if you insist on the latest and greatest. As one example - if you bought a used OG 1266 instead of the Phi, you'd hardly be losing any money on the sale and still be able to enjoy one of the best headphones on the planet.

It was my dream because it was the best. Music has always been a major part of my life and I'd like to have the best headphone. I have no Mackbook, just a low end ACER, and my smartphone is an LG5 because when my LG3 died a few months ago, I thought it had all I needed. Yes, last that 2 years in much faster than other companies. And it is based upon lies. Did that Joe say that the CC was mostly a cosmetic upgrade ($400, I wouldn't have bought the new pads, specially that it hard no to say that the ABYSS is one of the ugliest speaker on the world : reminds me of scenes of Brazil) : NO. Did he say it was the latest evolution : YES.

I'm thinking of those who have bought a brand new CC. And yes, I will no longer use the CC (and as a matter of fact, because of surgery, have never used it : it is when I decided to use it that I discovered there was the TI. I've offered it for free on French forums.
This is the only positive thing I can do from what I consider a scam

 

[tholt]

Hifiman can provide an upgrade path because it is based on cheap Chinese labor.
For Abyss, I think it is almost impossible because its manufacturing is based on US labor, which costs whole lot more. Also, Abyss is a small company. Small companies need a healthy profit margin to sustain their business.

Naw. It doesn't take much to be able to offer an upgrade path. Factor it in when you're designing the shiny new thing, unless it's a radical design departure that physically won't work with the existing product (and I don't believe that to be the case with the CC and TC upgrades, correct me if I'm wrong). That's not a small vs big company thing, that's a conscious strategy decision. And let's face it, Abyss are some of the spendiest cans around, it's not like they're not making money to fund their 'small' operation. I can empathize with those who feel slighted that they have to pay full retail for an upgrade. All I'm saying.

 

[506638]

I understand what you meant and i was under the impression that your time window was a bit of an exageration lol However, i don't think new LCD-4 buyers would be as slighted to hear a new version had come out (even outside the return window) as it has been over three years since the LCD-4 came out. I remember reading the Hifiman thread when a newer version of the HE-1000 came out in such a short time span, and all the angry responses which i think were justified as this hobby doesn't usually see flagship headphones replaced that quickly with a newer version.

Regarding the HE-1000, it is kind of a special matter. There were beta testers here and many reviews were below average. So they had to improve them. But the HE-560 lasted for a long time, the HD800 also, the Grado also not mentioning the STAX.

 

[506638]

Naw. It doesn't take much to be able to offer an upgrade path. Factor it in when you're designing the shiny new thing, unless it's a radical design departure that physically won't work with the existing product (and I don't believe that to be the case with the CC and TC upgrades, correct me if I'm wrong). That's not a small vs big company thing, that's a conscious strategy decision. And let's face it, Abyss are some of the spendiest cans around, it's not like they're not making money to fund their 'small' operation. I can empathize with those who feel slighted that they have to pay full retail for an upgrade. All I'm saying.

And the 1266 could be upgraded to 1266 Phi. Some US companies such as PS Audio offer (only to US people ) trade in to allow people to buy one of their unit or upgrade it.

 

[franz12]

Naw. It doesn't take much to be able to offer an upgrade path. Factor it in when you're designing the shiny new thing, unless it's a radical design departure that physically won't work with the existing product (and I don't believe that to be the case with the CC and TC upgrades, correct me if I'm wrong). That's not a small vs big company thing, that's a conscious strategy decision. And let's face it, Abyss are some of the spendiest cans around, it's not like they're not making money to fund their 'small' operation. I can empathize with those who feel slighted that they have to pay full retail for an upgrade. All I'm saying.

You need to factor in labor costs. As far as their manufacturing is based on the U.S, labor costs are a sizeable chunk of costs of doing business. I paid 18k USD last year for my health insurance premium alone. I don't know how much Abyss pays for its employees, but that tells a lot.
And those costs limit the scope of their strategic decisions. Also, that is the reason why many companies move their factories abroad. If you support U.S. workers, that is the part you need to accept. Otherwise, you don't. It's up to you.

 

[bfreedma]

You need to factor in labor costs. As far as their manufacturing is based on the U.S, labor costs are a sizeable chunk of costs of doing business. I paid 18k USD last year for my health insurance premium alone. I don't know how much Abyss pays for its employees, but that tells a lot.
And those costs limit the scope of their strategic decisions. Also, that is the reason why many companies move their factories abroad. If you support U.S. workers, that is the part you need to accept. Otherwise, you don't. It's up to you.

I’m not sure why you’re bringing manufacturing and labor costs into the equation. The difference in labor cost could be built into the price of the upgrade.

 

[tholt]

You need to factor in labor costs. As far as their manufacturing is based on the U.S, labor costs are a sizeable chunk of costs of doing business. I paid 18k USD last year for my health insurance premium alone. I don't know how much Abyss pays for its employees, but that tells a lot.
And those costs limit the scope of their strategic decisions. Also, that is the reason why many companies move their factories abroad. If you support U.S. workers, that is the part you need to accept. Otherwise, you don't. It's up to you.

My argument has NOTHING to do with supporting US workers and home-grown products so please don't skew the discussion. I get that making things in the states and taxes etc. make running companies and manufacturing here more expensive than elsewhere. I don't know how many employees JPS has, but by your own comment, they are 'small' and I would probably agree. I'm sure they are factoring operating costs in direct relation to the prices they charge for their products.

So your argument is, Abyss can't afford to pay their employees if they offer an upgrade path?

 

[franz12]

My argument has NOTHING to do with supporting US workers and home-grown products so please don't skew the discussion. I get that making things in the states and taxes etc. make running companies and manufacturing here more expensive than elsewhere. I don't know how many employees JPS has, but by your own comment, they are 'small' and I would probably agree. I'm sure they are factoring operating costs in direct relation to the prices they charge for their products.

So your argument is, Abyss can't afford to pay their employees if they offer an upgrade path?

I guess that it is not profitable from the previous comment from Abyss in this thread.
To be clear, I don't want to defend any companies for their pricing, because I am also a headfier who needs to run rigs with a limited budget.
I just wanted to point out that this is not uncommon, especially for a U.S. based company.

Say, Zach just announced Auteur/Vertie with different wood. Also, between the Auteur and the Vertie, it was about 18 months.
I have yet to see any customers who demand upgrade from one to another or changing the type of wood.
So I think Zach is a clever business man, but Joe is not.