[ken6217]

My personal opinion: why should I spend 10 / 20K on amplification to change the setting of a headphone (Abyss AB-1266) that was born like this, with its advantages (many) and defects (few)?

Born like what? It doesn't operate in a vacuum. It needs an amp, DAC, cables, etc. If you wanted your statement to be accurate, you would have to ask JPS Labs what equipment they used in conjunction with the TC to voice it.

The basic sound characteristics will be there regardless of the associated equipment, however some characteristics can be altered depending on the amp, DAC, and cables.

 

[Drewligarchy]

I really wonder about this WA33. Since I live in Europe and getting fully upgraded WA33 is kinda impossible (read very expensive) I cannot directly try. Could you tell me what do you mean by "headphones disappear" when you refer to midrange of this amp with 1266? For example, I tried Riviera AIC-10 and Viva Egoista 845 amplifier, both amazing pieces of equipment, BUT I don't know which of it I would call "headphones disappear". Are you referring to transparency? I found Egoista much more transparent (playing to strengths of 1266), BUT Riviera was more enjoyable for mid centric music, as it coloured 1266's recessed cold/metallic mids. When you say headphones disappear, is that because WA33 changes tonality of the headphone to something more pleasing, or because it does not change the signature? I am curious, thanks!

I am not particular good at these types of descriptions but at a high level it’s more real. I also have a very good source thats highly optimized. It definitely fills out the mids a bit, but yes - transparency to the source is incredibly high, while sounding more liquid. I found the abyss a touch dry on solid state.

There are edges where there are supposed to be, and no edges where there is not. Let’s take vocals / voice. If I am having a conversation with you I hear your voice and it doesn’t sound bright or dark. It just sound like a voice. That’s what the woo did. When I hear vocals, they just sound real. Not bright, not dark, not recorded. Now if you apply that to other parts of the music as well, their tonality, transients and sound envelope - it’s going to sound more real - thus the headphones disappearing. Like you could imagine someone playing in front of you.

 

[stemiki]

Born like what? It doesn't operate in a vacuum. It needs an amp, DAC, cables, etc. If you wanted your statement to be accurate, you would have to ask JPS Labs what equipment they used in conjunction with the TC to voice it.

The basic sound characteristics will be there regardless of the associated equipment, however some characteristics can be altered depending on the amp, DAC, and cables.

Let me explain: if I have a system of a certain high level (file-dac-source of high quality) the amplifier at this point should only amplify a signal from point A to point B. At this point if the result does not satisfy perhaps is the case to switch to another headset instead of spending another 10-20k of amplifier ... IMHO

 

[stemiki]

Oh, I absolutely agree, I thought it was ridiculous to even try, wanted to rather have a second pair of headphones, but when I actually test driven all of these combinations (Susvara, Valkyria, Utopia and Bartok or Viva) I just ended up falling in love with 1266+Riviera, nothing else quite could do it for me after that. Of course, that is only true for some genres, EDM still sounds best out of Bartok (not using Riviera for EDM).

I can understand you. Indeed this is a passion without limits!

 

[mammal]

There are edges where there are supposed to be, and no edges where there is not. Let’s take vocals / voice. If I am having a conversation with you I hear your voice and it doesn’t sound bright or dark. It just sound like a voice. That’s what the woo did. When I hear vocals, they just sound real. Not bright, not dark, not recorded. Now if you apply that to other parts of the music as well, their tonality, transients and sound envelope - it’s going to sound more real - thus the headphones disappearing. Like you could imagine someone playing in front of you.

Very interesting, thank you. This is how I felt after upgrading from TT2 to Bartok, music sounded predictable and not coloured to a certain direction, sharp sounded sharp, but soft sounded soft, it was like as if I removed a coloured glass (or replaced it with transparent glass). Now you got me wondering regarding WA33 and 1266 mids. So far you have described tonality (and transients), but how about distance/forwardness? For me, "stock" 1266 out of most of amplifiers has a V shape, where mids (vocals mainly) sound like someone is singing from a hallway, where as with Riviera, it becomes more "flat", meaning that vocals go to the front a lot. So for me, Riviera changes both tonality (good for mids centric music, bad for EDM), but also vocal forwardness (good for both EDM and mids centric music).

 

[Drewligarchy]

Let me explain: if I have a system of a certain high level (file-dac-source of high quality) the amplifier at this point should only amplify a signal from point A to point B. At this point if the result does not satisfy perhaps is the case to switch to another headset instead of spending another 10-20k of amplifier ... IMHO

You don’t need to spend 10-20k on a good amp for the Abyss, but to your general point, the reason I would play around with amps is because if you get it right, the musical enjoyment (admittedly not necessarily accuracy) is going to be signficantly more than another headphone because the abyss does certain things no other headphone does, and frequency response doesn’t tell the whole story.

I have a v281, didn’t like it with the abyss. Tonally it was good - but couldn’t get the soundstage for some reason. I had the formula s, and like it most amongst solid states, but ultimately felt I was losing to much transparency with Dave. I actually listened to it directly plugged into Dave and tonality was spot on - it just wasn’t enough power.

I demoed your amp, the benchmark, for their 30 day period - and ended up returning it. I know it’s an exceptionally well engineered amp, I felt it was a little dry directly comparing to plugging into the Dave. I told them that when I returned it, and they thought i was crazy. But it was, to my ears. Doesn’t mean it’s not a great amp, just wasn’t for me

The thing I enjoy about this hobby is finding something you like and then optimizing it for your preferences as much as possible. Sure, if you don’t like it to begin with - you should get a different headphones. But nearly Every headphone can be improved with the electronics that suit the headphone and your taste.

 

[Drewligarchy]

Very interesting, thank you. This is how I felt after upgrading from TT2 to Bartok, music sounded predictable and not coloured to a certain direction, sharp sounded sharp, but soft sounded soft, it was like as if I removed a coloured glass (or replaced it with transparent glass). Now you got me wondering regarding WA33 and 1266 mids. So far you have described tonality (and transients), but how about distance/forwardness? For me, "stock" 1266 out of most of amplifiers has a V shape, where mids (vocals mainly) sound like someone is singing from a hallway, where as with Riviera, it becomes more "flat", meaning that vocals go to the front a lot. So for me, Riviera changes both tonality (good for mids centric music, bad for EDM), but also vocal forwardness (good for both EDM and mids centric music).

yes, definitely more mid forward with the woo. It seems tubes generally do the, even if the Configuration is different (eg push pull / set).

 

[ken6217]

Let me explain: if I have a system of a certain high level (file-dac-source of high quality) the amplifier at this point should only amplify a signal from point A to point B. At this point if the result does not satisfy perhaps is the case to switch to another headset instead of spending another 10-20k of amplifier ... IMHO

That explanation does make sense. You will change some characteristics of the headphone by changing amps, but the inherent characteristics of the 1266 will still be there.

With that said, depending on the amp, you can change the tone, soundstage, spacing, and detail, while still maintaining the main attributes of the 1266.

 

[stemiki]

You don’t need to spend 10-20k on a good amp for the Abyss, but to your general point, the reason I would play around with amps is because if you get it right, the musical enjoyment (admittedly not necessarily accuracy) is going to be signficantly more than another headphone because the abyss does certain things no other headphone does, and frequency response doesn’t tell the whole story.

I have a v281, didn’t like it with the abyss. Tonally it was good - but couldn’t get the soundstage for some reason. I had the formula s, and like it most amongst solid states, but ultimately felt I was losing to much transparency with Dave. I actually listened to it directly plugged into Dave and tonality was spot on - it just wasn’t enough power.

I demoed your amp, the benchmark, for their 30 day period - and ended up returning it. I know it’s an exceptionally well engineered amp, I felt it was a little dry directly comparing to plugging into the Dave. I told them that when I returned it, and they thought i was crazy. But it was, to my ears. Doesn’t mean it’s not a great amp, just wasn’t for me

The thing I enjoy about this hobby is finding something you like and then optimizing it for your preferences as much as possible. Sure, if you don’t like it to begin with - you should get a different headphones. But nearly Every headphone can be improved with the electronics that suit the headphone and your taste.

In fact, mine was not a criticism of Mamal or who spends a lot on this hobby. It was just a reflection about the amplifiers which, in the case of high level sources, should only amplify at this point, otherwise why spend a lot on the source / dac and change their timbre again ..

 

[mammal]

yes, definitely more mid forward with the woo. It seems tubes generally do the, even if the Configuration is different (eg push pull / set).

I am not knowledgeable enough about tubes, the only two I tried sounded very different, Riviera definitely brought mids forward, BUT Viva did not at all, to my surprise it sounded more transparent than Bartok itself. I am sure I am overloading the term transparent here, maybe what I want to say is "more clean" (calling it sterile would be too much). As far as I understand, Viva is a SET tube and Riviera is a hybrid (tube for preamp, the rest being solid state).

 

[therock10]

You don’t need to spend 10-20k on a good amp for the Abyss, but to your general point, the reason I would play around with amps is because if you get it right, the musical enjoyment (admittedly not necessarily accuracy) is going to be signficantly more than another headphone because the abyss does certain things no other headphone does, and frequency response doesn’t tell the whole story.

I have a v281, didn’t like it with the abyss. Tonally it was good - but couldn’t get the soundstage for some reason. I had the formula s, and like it most amongst solid states, but ultimately felt I was losing to much transparency with Dave. I actually listened to it directly plugged into Dave and tonality was spot on - it just wasn’t enough power.

I demoed your amp, the benchmark, for their 30 day period - and ended up returning it. I know it’s an exceptionally well engineered amp, I felt it was a little dry directly comparing to plugging into the Dave. I told them that when I returned it, and they thought i was crazy. But it was, to my ears. Doesn’t mean it’s not a great amp, just wasn’t for me

The thing I enjoy about this hobby is finding something you like and then optimizing it for your preferences as much as possible. Sure, if you don’t like it to begin with - you should get a different headphones. But nearly Every headphone can be improved with the electronics that suit the headphone and your taste.

did you try the xiaudio formula s+ powerman with ab1266? even abyss said they are design for the ab1266

 

[sahmen]

Born like what? It doesn't operate in a vacuum. It needs an amp, DAC, cables, etc. If you wanted your statement to be accurate, you would have to ask JPS Labs what equipment they used in conjunction with the TC to voice it.

The basic sound characteristics will be there regardless of the associated equipment, however some characteristics can be altered depending on the amp, DAC, and cables.

Funny, but this sounds exactly like what I wanted to tell you when you dismissed the Pathos InPol Ear as sounding "Equal" to the Wa33 because someone had said that the two amps perform "at the same level" or something like that. Ha ha, Like you, I was wondering about these same issues regarding the particular chains and synergies that produced that verdict, and also wondering why you did not show any curiosity about the same factors, especially since the Wa33 comes under different configurations, and the Pathos too has to work with tubes which always influence its performance for better or for worse...

Since such variables (tube-rolling variables, among others) on both sides already render any judgment about their being simply "equal" already highly debatable, if not outright suspect, it surprised me that you would accept the verdict so readily without further ado...

Personally, I would ask questions similar to yours if someone were to tell me that the Sonnet Morpheus (out of context) performs at the same level as, say the Schiit Bifrost 2 or the Topping D90 (also out of context). I would ask about the surrounding equipment instead of jumping to the conclusion that the Morpheus and the Bifrost are "equal" on the basis of that "someone"'s comment.

Not trying to piss you off here, or anything of that sort, honestly. I just thought using your own insights to rephrase my question might work best for you since you dismissed my earlier attempts as "parsing."

Now I shall humbly lay this topic to rest in order not to digress too much from the topic of the TC, which I am currently very interested in. Fortunately, my understanding is that both the Wa33 and the InPol Ear are great with the TC, so hopefully this post does not come across as being too off the mark.

Again, just doing a little follow-up. Not trying to piss you off or pick a fight.

 

[mammal]

That explanation does make sense. You will change some characteristics of the headphone by changing amps, but the inherent characteristics of the 1266 will still be there.

With that said, depending on the amp, you can change the tone, soundstage, spacing, and detail, while still maintaining the main attributes of the 1266.

I like your line of thinking, but have found folks online not being 100% on the same page when it comes to "what are those characteristics", if you know what I mean. For example, to me what Abyss does the best (for the price point and my experience level) is resolution. Eeeeveryone is telling me about 1266's bass, but for me (and nobody warned me), 1266's selling point is its resolution. But for me, 1266 compared to others (like Susvara or Valkyria) sound so resolving, in every meaning of the word. Layered bass, detailed mids, expansive soundstage and impressive imaging, all of these feel to me as "good technicalities" of a headphone, where as other things like tonality (V shape, flat neutral), I can fix with a dac/amp combo. Resolution, is what I found ultimately the most important thing for me. I am yet to hear SR1a (which is said to resolve even more, but lack in other areas, so perhaps less balanced or less "fixable" with amps, we will see). I for one, tried Susvara for 2 weeks, really wanted to own it, but in the end, was missing said resolution. Don't take me wrong, it is still very resolving headphone and I know many will disagree with me, saying that mids are actually more resolving on Susvara, but for me, they were not, and I did try multiple amplifiers, to power it sufficiently.

 

[ken6217]

Funny, but this sounds exactly like what I wanted to tell you when you dismissed the Pathos InPol Ear as sounding "Equal" to the Wa33 because someone had said that the two amps perform "at the same level" or something like that. Ha ha, Like you, I was wondering about these same issues regarding the particular chains and synergies that produced that verdict, and also wondering why you did not show any curiosity about the same factors, especially since the Wa33 comes under different configurations, and the Pathos too has to work with tubes which always influence its performance for better or for worse...

Since such variables (tube-rolling variables, among others) on both sides already render any judgment about their being simply "equal" already highly debatable, if not outright suspect, it surprised me that you would accept the verdict so readily without further ado...

Personally, I would ask questions similar to yours if someone were to tell me that the Sonnet Morpheus (out of context) performs at the same level as, say the Schiit Bifrost 2 or the Topping D90 (also out of context). I would ask about the surrounding equipment instead of jumping to the conclusion that the Morpheus and the Bifrost are "equal" on the basis of that "someone"'s comment.

Not trying to piss you off here, or anything of that sort, honestly. I just thought using your own insights to rephrase my question might work best for you since you dismissed my earlier attempts as "parsing."

Now I shall humbly lay this topic to rest in order not to digress too much from the topic of the TC, which I am currently very interested in. Fortunately, my understanding is that both the Wa33 and the InPol Ear are great with the TC, so hopefully this post does not come across as being too off the mark.

Again, just doing a little follow-up. Not trying to piss you off or pick a fight.

First of all, you can’t piss me off as I don’t care enough.

Secondly, the reason I said that about the Pathos is that I heard the WA33 and didn’t like it at all. So when someone tells me the Pathos is on the same level, then I’m already turned off to it.

 

[Drewligarchy]

did you try the xiaudio formula s+ powerman with ab1266? even abyss said they are design for the ab1266

Yes. I sold it. I preferred the Wa33.