[OCC7N]

...
Deleted

 

[Superdad]

Sorry. I rewrote my answer a few times before posting myself, because I didn't want to be "that guy", a.k.a. a jerk. But I probably still failed, and it probably still came across as asinine, and for that, I apologize.

Perhaps you might listen to your 2022 self...

You're taking this a bit too personally, but simultaneously you are assuming that a company that is trying to make money selling ridiculously over-priced antique electronic equipment using (literally) unbelievable claims and imaginary technical words is somehow completely objective

Nothing "antique" there. Just 100% original design. These boards cost us over $300 each to produce.

However, to keep this as objective as possible: It's been over 30 years since I have done any silicon chip design work, and I am not a leader in the field of network audio. You have successfully called me out, and I am every bit the fraud that you assumed that I was. Other than the part where I didn't actually claim to be designing silicon chips or leading the field of network audio.

Of course, outside of this particular thread, I've never even seen the name UpTone Audio, so my guess is that they are also similarly fraudulent, in that they are neither designing silicon chips nor leading the field of network audio.

I guess you don't get around much then. My engineer partner, John Swenson, recently retired from Broadcom. He spent 31 years as a senior engineer at LSI Logic>Avago>Broadcom, and his speciality was laying our the power networks of very large scale ASICs--that went into Cisco and other enterprise gear. He literally designed Ethernet and USB PHY chips. He lab at home contains nearly $600K (retail) of test gear (most bought used at a fraction of original. He owns a Jackson Labs Phase Station (which he paid $21K for; is the same as the Microsemi 53100A), clocks that measure -151dBc/Hz at 10Hz, and about $30K of 6GHz active differential probes. Plus he has a PCB CNC mill, a small run pick-and-place machine, and a vapor-phase reflow oven--all so that we can turn around test boards in house (ever try to place and solder a 2mm x 3mm 10-ball BGA by hand?).

"Fraudulent?" Give me a break. My firm has a stellar reputation (I formed my LLC in 2010), more than 13K customers worldwide, and we sell our products with a long warranty and a 30-day money-back guarantee. Plus we are 100% transparent about all we do--via active engagement with audiophiles in our sponsored forum area over at AudiophileStyle--where I've been a member since 2008.
EtherREGEN has sold more than 3,400 units worldwide since its release--and only about 20 have ever been returned. It is still the ONLY switch in the world to put Ethernet signals across an active-differential-isolation "moat," with 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter reclocking flip-flops on both sides.

My prior firm--with brilliant partners--was Hovland Company (ca' 1999~2009; though our work together stretched back to the late 1970s). Some Googling with show you what those famous products were about.

By the way, John Swenson also is the circuit engineer for the well-known and long running Sonore Rendu series, with the original microRendu being one of the very first network audio streamers, and the present ultraRendu and opticalRendu continuing to offer high performance for thousands of users.

So what were you saying again about "neither designing silicon chips nor leading the field of network audio."?

--Alex C.

 

[Jake2]

I assume you meant upstream?

Source > N8 > ethernet > oMD v2 > fiber > ER > ethernet > PlayPoint
Ethernet cables are Audio Sensibility Signature I2S and Audio Sensibility Signature
Fiber link is Corning single-mode with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs
Source is either a QNAP NAS or TP-Link router
All components on linear power except for the NAS

I am not convinced that an external clock is a good idea. Ed Meitner said it a terrible idea, a clock should be a few millimeters from the chip, otherwise EMI/RFI and power supply noise will cause jitter. The measurements I've seen so far show deteriorated technical performance, even with a pricey Mutec REF-10 clock.

Cheers for the info. I guess Ethernet is bidirectional so using river flow terms is ambiguous…I should’ve been clearer, but yes I meant the streamer/output end. I tend to think of upstream as the router/WAN end (the source) and downstream as the streamer (output). But to immediately poke holes in that imperfect analogy have you tried connecting your NAS directly to your ER? I ask as after a fair bit of experimentation a year or so back found my system sounded decidedly better with my Roon/HQP server directly connected to the OCXO switch my streamer is connected to, rather than farther away connected to the router or the upstream (in my parlance) Netgear switch. Direct router connection was worst. Need to revisit this again, but at the time I reasoned the higher quality clocking, lower noise of the better switch and potentially shorter signal routing path benefitted the performance of the server and streamer data flow more than the more proximate /less isolated connection of the server as an RFI noise source detrimentally impacted my streaming DAC I.e. a net benefit at a system level.

 

[audiobomber]

Cheers for the info. I guess Ethernet is bidirectional so using river flow terms is ambiguous…I should’ve been clearer, but yes I meant the streamer/output end. I tend to think of upstream as the router/WAN end (the source) and downstream as the streamer (output). But to immediately poke holes in that imperfect analogy have you tried connecting your NAS directly to your ER? I ask as after a fair bit of experimentation a year or so back found my system sounded decidedly better with my Roon/HQP server directly connected to the OCXO switch my streamer is connected to, rather than farther away connected to the router or the upstream (in my parlance) Netgear switch. Direct router connection was worst. Need to revisit this again, but at the time I reasoned the higher quality clocking, lower noise of the better switch and potentially shorter signal routing path benefitted the performance of the server and streamer data flow more than the more proximate /less isolated connection of the server as an RFI noise source detrimentally impacted my streaming DAC I.e. a net benefit at a system level.

There's no doubt that connecting directly to the router is the worst. A switch is mandatory for better sound quality, and more than one is beneficial, IME, as long as they are used in the proper order, with the best switch last.

My NAS is a noisy creature, it never shuts up, therefore not suitable for my audio rack. It's at the network end, with my desktop system, separated from my main audio system by 15m (50') of fiber optic cable. Unlike copper, that distance is irrelevant with fiber cable, which can transmit for miles with no deterioration. I believe it was @Superdad who said that an ethernet cable longer than 2m will require error correction at the receiving end.

The N8 switch is better than the Netgear switch it replaced, and the opticalModule Deluxe v2 was a big step forward compared to the 10GTek and TP-Link MC220L FMCs I used previously. Together, these two do an excellent job of cleaning the signal from the NAS. Music files from the NAS actually go through four switches; N8, oMD and ER (the ER contains two separate switches) before reaching the renderer.

 

[OCC7N]

Has anyone experimented with VyOS for a DIY router build?

I ordered some cheap NICs, to test an experiment. It is for for reclock/isolation purpose before the switch on the WAN. The SFP NIC will be replaced with the Afterdark S1 if this works as improvement for the sound signature/sonics

 

[Tubewin]

Perhaps you might listen to your 2022 self...



Nothing "antique" there. Just 100% original design. These boards cost us over $300 each to produce.



I guess you don't get around much then. My engineer partner, John Swenson, recently retired from Broadcom. He spent 31 years as a senior engineer at LSI Logic>Avago>Broadcom, and his speciality was laying our the power networks of very large scale ASICs--that went into Cisco and other enterprise gear. He literally designed Ethernet and USB PHY chips. He lab at home contains nearly $600K (retail) of test gear (most bought used at a fraction of original. He owns a Jackson Labs Phase Station (which he paid $21K for; is the same as the Microsemi 53100A), clocks that measure -151dBc/Hz at 10Hz, and about $30K of 6GHz active differential probes. Plus he has a PCB CNC mill, a small run pick-and-place machine, and a vapor-phase reflow oven--all so that we can turn around test boards in house (ever try to place and solder a 2mm x 3mm 10-ball BGA by hand?).

"Fraudulent?" Give me a break. My firm has a stellar reputation (I formed my LLC in 2010), more than 13K customers worldwide, and we sell our products with a long warranty and a 30-day money-back guarantee. Plus we are 100% transparent about all we do--via active engagement with audiophiles in our sponsored forum area over at AudiophileStyle--where I've been a member since 2008.
EtherREGEN has sold more than 3,400 units worldwide since its release--and only about 20 have ever been returned. It is still the ONLY switch in the world to put Ethernet signals across an active-differential-isolation "moat," with 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter reclocking flip-flops on both sides.

My prior firm--with brilliant partners--was Hovland Company (ca' 1999~2009; though our work together stretched back to the late 1970s). Some Googling with show you what those famous products were about.

By the way, John Swenson also is the circuit engineer for the well-known and long running Sonore Rendu series, with the original microRendu being one of the very first network audio streamers, and the present ultraRendu and opticalRendu continuing to offer high performance for thousands of users.

So what were you saying again about "neither designing silicon chips nor leading the field of network audio."?

--Alex C.

I'll be the first to order the Etherregen 2, make sure to put one on reserve for me Alex, when you have them up and running.

 

[Tubewin]

In post #1931 of this thread, I reported on a shoot-out with the LHY SW-10. I have edited the post to remove the results of this test, as it has come to my attention that I may have tested the LHY with a 10GTek SFP instead of the Finisar. I apologize to anyone who read the post and to LHY for my carelessness.

Hopefully I will be able to redo these comparisons in the future. My opinion at this time remains what it was when I had the LHY in-house for a week. Either the EtherRegen or SW-10 can sound best, depending on ancillaries (power supply, AC and DC cables, fuse, clock, system synergy and personal preference).

I also have the SW-10 and the Etherregen, and I can't really remove either of them from the system. It sounds better with both of these switches together... if I had to choose between the sw-10 and the Etherregen, I would probably keep the etherregen. The LHY on its own is too soft sounding in my chain.

The Melco s100/2 didn't synergize with my chain unfortunately.

 

[bluenight]

I remember watching this video some time ago where passion for sound was trying different tweaks and ranked them of the audible improvement. Ethernet reagen was the network tweak. It did not do bad.

This was his first and i think only network tweak video he have done and it was new area to him.

 

[audiobomber]

I also have the SW-10 and the Etherregen, and I can't really remove either of them from the system. It sounds better with both of these switches together... if I had to choose between the sw-10 and the Etherregen, I would probably keep the etherregen. The LHY on its own is too soft sounding in my chain.

Which is closest to your DAC?

I have a friend with an SW-10 and EtherRegen/Pardo MiniTeddy feeding an Antipodes K50. I brought my opticalModule Deluxe V2/Pardo MiniTeddy to his house to replace the SW-10 at the network end. After listening for an afternoon, he intends to sell the LHY and buy the oMD or ER II.

 

[Tubewin]

Which is closest to your DAC?

I have a friend with an SW-10 and EtherRegen/Pardo MiniTeddy feeding an Antipodes K50. I brought my opticalModule Deluxe V2/Pardo MiniTeddy to his house to replace the SW-10 at the network end. After listening for an afternoon, he intends to sell the LHY and buy the oMD or ER II.

Er is closest. I have a lhy fmc after the router as well.

 

[Jake2]

Just upgraded from my $20 FMC set to this combo, quite a step up as you might expect.

The Afterdark Rosanna is actually a network bridge, streaming endpoint but it can moonlight as a fancy FMC. Had both of these on the shelf in the too hard basket for an embarrassingly long time without managing to successfully get them working with other devices for one reason or another. Then it just occurred to me yesterday (doh!) the Rosanna's FMC section could work independently of its streamer board and all the Diretta setup complexity that entails, so thought I'd give it a go with the Teradak and hey presto!


Was pretty marked how much more refined and expansive my system sounded with the Afterdark, rather than the Teradak, placed in the downstream position closer to my streamer/DAC. As you'd hope given the big price difference between the two (not even counting the LPS, pure silver Xangsane DC cable and DC iPurifier2 I used with the Afterdark). Swapped them around downstream & upstream a couple of times - not a subtle difference.

Currently just have them feeding my LHY SW-8 using some basic ethernet cables and the stock power cable for the Teradak due to equipment rack cable reach constraints and a finite number of good PCs.. need to get more. Will rejig em to try feeding my streamer /server directly from the Afterdark incl with a better downstream ethernet cable.

Current chain below including my arrived-this-week LHY UIP USB regenerator, which is simply superb btw. Previously I'd used the R26's internal HQP renderer, but USB input via the UIP alone is a level up, let alone with the upstream other two USB isolators each of which make a satisfying difference. System has never sounded nearly this good.

Modem > Router > Netgear GS108E > Teradak FMC > Finisar AOC > Afterdark Rosanna > LHY SW-8 > Mac Mini M1 (Roon/HQP) > USB galvanic isolator (+ Power X + DC iPurifier2) > Holo Titanis USB regenerator > LHY UIP USB Regen > R26 DAC

Further experimentation with the UIP in combination with the currently sidelined U18, SU-6 and Zen Stream in coming days.

 

[audiobomber]

Just upgraded from my $20 FMC set to this combo, quite a step up as you might expect.

The Afterdark Rosanna is actually a network bridge, streaming endpoint but it can moonlight as a fancy FMC. Had both of these on the shelf in the too hard basket for an embarrassingly long time without managing to successfully get them working with other devices for one reason or another. Then it just occurred to me yesterday (doh!) the Rosanna's FMC section could work independently of its streamer board and all the Diretta setup complexity that entails, so thought I'd give it a go with the Teradak and hey presto!


Was pretty marked how much more refined and expansive my system sounded with the Afterdark, rather than the Teradak, placed in the downstream position closer to my streamer/DAC. As you'd hope given the big price difference between the two (not even counting the LPS, pure silver Xangsane DC cable and DC iPurifier2 I used with the Afterdark). Swapped them around downstream & upstream a couple of times - not a subtle difference.

Currently just have them feeding my LHY SW-8 using some basic ethernet cables and the stock power cable for the Teradak due to equipment rack cable reach constraints and a finite number of good PCs.. need to get more. Will rejig em to try feeding my streamer /server directly from the Afterdark incl with a better downstream ethernet cable.

Current chain below including my arrived-this-week LHY UIP USB regenerator, which is simply superb btw. Previously I'd used the R26's internal HQP renderer, but USB input via the UIP alone is a level up, let alone with the upstream other two USB isolators each of which make a satisfying difference. System has never sounded nearly this good.

Modem > Router > Netgear GS108E > Teradak FMC > Finisar AOC > Afterdark Rosanna > LHY SW-8 > Mac Mini M1 (Roon/HQP) > USB galvanic isolator (+ Power X + DC iPurifier2) > Holo Titanis USB regenerator > LHY UIP USB Regen > R26 DAC

Further experimentation with the UIP in combination with the currently sidelined U18, SU-6 and Zen Stream in coming days.

Which SFPs are you using?

 

[OnlySoMany]

Ordered a Cardas Clear ethernet for my second setup. Going to compare to Audioquest Diamond. See if the diamond is worth 4x the cost.

 

[Jake2]

Which SFPs are you using?

Finisar FCBG110SD1C01 AOC used for this listening.

Also have these Finisar SFPs - FTLF1318P3BTL, but have yet to get a Corning cable for em as last time I looked it was really difficult to get any shipped here for less than a king's ransom... a wierd pricing/ availability/ shipping cost distortion. Will have another look.

Any particular Corning cable you recommend? As when I went to their site they have a crazy wide range of optical cables.

 

[TRHH]

@Jake2 - With my Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL:

Or you can use:

Torben