The Entry Level Stax Thread
Sep 6, 2016 at 4:16 PM Post #2,281 of 3,322
  Of course, I will try them (Stax) before choosing. I have hear the 650s that why I like them already.

 
Which country are you in?
 
Europe and Asia have many shops where you can walk in and audition STAX, but there are barely any in the US.
 
You may be able to find one at a meet: http://www.head-fi.org/f/24/local-regional-head-fi-meets-parties-get-togethers
 
The fact that the SR-207 / SRS-2170 is discontinued and costs too much unless you get it used complicates things.
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 4:25 PM Post #2,282 of 3,322
  Which country are you in?
 
Europe and Asia have many shops where you can walk in and audition STAX, but there are barely any in the US.
 
You may be able to find one at a meet: http://www.head-fi.org/f/24/local-regional-head-fi-meets-parties-get-togethers
 
The fact that the SR-207 / SRS-2170 is discontinued and costs too much unless you get it used complicates things.

 
 
USA. Yeah there are hardly any audio shop around... I tried the 650s at a BestBuy of all places they offered me the store display unit for $200 and I said "NO". I still regret that today... I also passed up a Darkvoice tube amp for $185 it came with 7 tubes too. I got my HD 598 for $120 though but thier no HD650s.
 
That is why I want to have my next headphones planned out so if I see a good deal I can grab them. 
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 4:32 PM Post #2,283 of 3,322
  Definitely sounds like a ground loop issue. Are you grounded at more than one point in your setup? Even if you aren't, that can still easily happen. Has to do with how the various equipment is internally grounded, not that they're defective.
 
I had a similar issue where my old floating DAC was using the RCA cables to try to ground through my KGSSHV. A separate grounding wire between them fixed it.


It even occurs after physically disconnecting power from the srm-xh, with only one channel of audio fed into it. Only stops temporarily if I touch the case (preferably the screws on the front) or fades out after some minutes. I just fail to understand where the loop can occur in that case.
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 4:36 PM Post #2,284 of 3,322
  USA. Yeah there are hardly any audio shop around... I tried the 650s at a BestBuy of all places they offered me the store display unit for $200 and I said "NO". I still regret that today... I also passed up a Darkvoice tube amp for $185 it came with 7 tubes too. I got my HD 598 for $120 though but thier no HD650s.
 
That is why I want to have my next headphones planned out so if I see a good deal I can grab them. 

 
That's an amazing price. I only paid $230 for a used HD 650, but it usually goes for higher. The good thing is that if you buy a used STAX system and decide to move on to something else, you can sell it for the same price you paid.
 
Aside from the sale/trade section here, the Japanese Yahoo! Auctions is a good source for used STAX, but as I understand it you have to use a middleman service.
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 4:40 PM Post #2,285 of 3,322
Quote:
Stax are not bright at all
Grado sr mid line are bright
No point in discuss
Try them and then choose
Whatever people say may not be your opinion
For me sr-207 is miles ahead of both 650 or 400...miles
Many people thinks they are even ahead of the 800s...
But one should try by themselves and decide....

 
Definitely demo a Stax system if possible as the realism is in another league, even if the SRS-2170 isn't my cup of tea. To my ears they're brighter than the HD-600, HE-5LE, LCD-XC, ATH-MSR7 and GS1000, though maybe the lean bass and unique presentation is confusing my ears. The first time I listened to them my inner ears were sore for hours which was surprising as I listen at low volumes. I'm still hugely impressed and now aiming for the SR-L700.
 
   
I think that's it! If you're used to darker headphones, STAX is going to sound bright.
 
To my ears, the SR-207 is easily the most neutral headphone I've heard. (Being an experienced musician, I use the sound of real instruments as my primary reference.) The measurements coincide with that as well. For example...
 
SR-207 + EP-507 pads
LCD-2
 
The Audeze dips down quite a bit past 2 kHz, whereas the STAX follows the compensation curves very closely. (Ignore the labels. The second image is from when @miceblue first started making these graphs and is mislabeled.)
 
About the bass...the stock SR-207 has a bass hump, but there are a few reasons its bass can sound lighter than other types of headphones. The distortion is extremely low and the impulse response is quick, so it won't sound as thick or slow as, say, a headphone with higher distortion, less quick impulse response, and bloated bass. And at higher volumes, most of the Lambdas apparently roll off in the bass, according to some sources. Not getting a full seal can also reduce the bass. Planar magnetic headphones, on the other hand, almost always have linear bass, but tend to be less linear in the higher frequencies, which can emphasize the bass more. I believe the "planar magnetic force" can also make their bass more powerful, but I don't know much about the technical side of that.

 
I think you're right about the bass quantity and my bias for darker sounding headphones. I'll re-evaluate the SR-207 over the next few months and will probably grow to appreciate them for more than acoustic instruments and vocals.
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 4:53 PM Post #2,287 of 3,322
I use a somewhat similar EQ actually. Just a bit of oomph in the bass, and tone down the upper-midrange a bit.

Same shape, only a few decibels less 
cool.gif
 I decided to buy them after your comprehensive YouTube review and now I finally realise why electrostats are so highly praised.
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 5:43 PM Post #2,288 of 3,322
 
It even occurs after physically disconnecting power from the srm-xh, with only one channel of audio fed into it. Only stops temporarily if I touch the case (preferably the screws on the front) or fades out after some minutes. I just fail to understand where the loop can occur in that case.

 
The power caps will keep playing music/noise until they run dry. It takes some time for that to happen after you turn off the amp. Just the fact that touching the case stops the problem means this is almost certainly a ground loop. That goes double when you consider it only happens with some equipment and not with others.
 
There are three main ways to bust the ground loop.
 
1. You can put ground lifters on the jacks or the audio cables you use (just a low ohm high power rated resistor run parallel with a small cap)
2. Use an isolation transformer (cheap ones really negatively affect SQ, and good ones are massive bricks)
3. Connect the amp chassis to the proper grounded chassis via a wire (easiest and the least problems)
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 6:06 PM Post #2,289 of 3,322
  Hi!
 
I have been a happy owner of a Lambda pro classic / srm-xh for many years. It hasn't seen much use for practical reasons recently (no way to position it close to the source and out of reach for small children), but now I wanted to reactivate it and ran into a strange problem.
 
It still works nice with any of the "normal" sources I have. The thing is, I wanted to connect it to a network player consisting of a raspberry pi with a hifiberry dac+ pro soundcard.
Now whenever the amp is connected to any of the outputs of any raspi, I get a strong noise that sounds like a grounding issue plus some extra noise related to the raspis operation (for example under heavy io-load. Now this is basically a raspberry or hifiberry issue, but there is one unusual aspects about it I'd like to hear your opinion about.
 
The noise is entirely independent of volume levels. It starts when I swich on the srm-xh, and it does not even stop when I switch it off - it just gradually fades (as the polarisation voltage decreases, I assume). Similarly, putting e preamp between raspi and headphone amp changes absolutely nothing, regardless of volume levels on the pre.
 
The only way to stop the noise is touching the stax amp or any other metal part of the setup (ethernet port of the raspi, anything...)
 
I do only get this problem when I connect the stax. Going directly into a power amp + speakers works marvellously, no noise at all, same goes for active speakers.
 
Now I wonder: is my headphone amp defective? As I said, it works fine with all the other sources I have. Or is there any kind of signal or distortion that could cause this phenomenon with a correctly working headphone amp?
 
I tried different cables of course, different power supplies for the raspi, a different power supply for the stax (with inverter plug of course, as the stax wants center negative).
 
Best regards
David

 
The extra 'computer noise' you're describing is also caused by incorrect grounding. I experienced this exact problem with my USB DAC. Fixing the grounding solved it completely. Also, I recognize that you can influence the hum by touching the case. This is also something I experienced with my Stax amp, and which I solved by fixing the grounding.
Probably, if you were to ground the case directly with a copper wire to earth, your problem would be solved. This helps for me. Unfortunately, the SRM-Xh doesn't have a ground binding post on the back, like the bigger Stax amps (for precisely this issue!), so you would have to improvise here. It would be a shame to scratch some paint of to attach a wire somehow. What you could try, is to ground the source in your system, if it has a screw somewhere on the case under which you could attach a copper wire to earth. I used to use the bindings post on the back of my Stax SRM-717 to ground my whole system, but now I do it via my computer case. It doesn't have to be the source, it just needs to be the next (or 'next to next') case in your system that is connected to the SRM-Xh. The RCA cables from the source to the amp connect both of their cases and hence their ground (unless your source is double insulated), so if you ground the next case, you'll ground the SRM-Xh along with it. Basically this is what you do when you touch the case: you are providing a path for the electricity on the case to escape the system. You must provide this path in a different, permanent, low-resistance way to solve your problem.
How easy this is, depends what kind of outlets they have where you live, and in some cases how old your house is. If you do not have grounded outlets, you can try grounding your system by tying the copper wire to a radiator, water pipe or the ground of the radio/television cable. This is not exactly how it's supposed to be, but it works well in a lot of cases.
The reason it works normally with your other sources, could be that these have grounded power cords to grounded outlets, while your raspberry pi and Stax amp both do not have grounded cords to their cases, leaving you with an ungrounded system.
 
  I have a quick question, I currently use the HD 598 and listen to a lot of classical music. I love them but when I'm ready for an upgrade or next pair of headphones would an entry level Stax system be the best choice or would something like the HD650s be better. I like open and airy sound but with a slightly dark signature. (I love  Sennheisers) I almost bought the 650s and now think I probably should have but I thought Stax may be worth considering. So what should I save for in the future?

 
In my opinion, a Stax SR-207 is VASTLY better than a Sennheiser HD650, for any genre, but especially for classical music. I owned the HD650 for a long time (back when it was considered high-end), and have extensive experience with a 207. In fact, I have one here right now since a few months, and as I'm writing this I'm listening to some Bach cantatas. :)
If you want open and airy, you must pick the 207. There's no competition between the two, the 207 is miles ahead in that regard. Because classical music is often recorded in large halls and churches, hearing this spaciousness adds greatly to the music. It sounds so real, so spacious, it's marvellous, even better (also different) in that regard than my Stax SR-007 you could say. On top of that, the 207 has so much more resolution and speed that every instrument is rendered in a completely effortless way, even when the music gets very full of all kinds of instruments, percussion, choir etc. It's easier to make out every little detail, and the music just seems to exist, rather than be reproduced by a driver. You'll hear so much more information with the SR-207 than with the HD650, and especially with classical the experience is (therefore) so much more pleasing with the 207. Classical recordings are often very well done, making it rewarding to listen to them with an electrostat.
​I'm not usually this strong voiced when it comes to comparing headphones or other equipment, but in this case I really feel that the 207 is many times better than the HD650. In general I find electrostatics to sound clearer than dynamics, and this is another aspect in which two headphones couldn't be further apart: the 207 super clear on the one hand, and the HD650 veiled (YES) on the other hand.
 
The HD650 does have a lovely midrange and a (more than slightly) dark signature. However, this soup it pours over everything can't be switched off. Yes, it makes for a cosy, warm sound with classical and vocals. It's more like an old opera house with heavy textiles on the walls and all over the place, dampening the higher frequencies, while the 207 is more like a modern concert hall or church with harder materials, letting you hear all the overtones as if you were close to the instrument.
The 207 is by no means bright. I have heard bright headphones (Stax SR-507 and Sennheiser HE60 for example, also HD800), and the 207 is not that. It's a bit mid-centric, but not by much, it is probably the most neutral pair of headphones I've ever heard, along with the 202. I also prefer the 207 and 202 to the HD800 by the way. The 207 does not have any irritating peaks in its frequency response. The term 'neutral' often gets misused by people who are trying to trivialise the bright nature of a pair of headphones, but in this case it's true: the 207 is not bright.
 
It is my strong opinion that you should choose the 207, and accept the fact that it will not have the dark signature you search. You could try to attain this in your system by choosing a dark sounding DAC, if you must, but try the 207 first and see if you still want it dark.
 
Combining an open and airy sound with a dark signature is very difficult to do, because more high frequency information leads to a better defined rendition of spacial cues. Thus, a bright headphone will sound more spacious than a dark headphone, and in a sense, you're asking for the impossible. The SR-007 however, almost pulls off this difficult combination, meaning that it does have slightly attenuated highs and smaller soundstage, but also a very precise placement of instruments and an incredible level of detail, and on top of that a lovely midrange. It's in a different price class, obviously, but within the Stax range, I guess it's the most HD650-like.
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 6:15 PM Post #2,290 of 3,322
  In my opinion, a Stax SR-207 is VASTLY better than a Sennheiser HD650, for any genre, but especially for classical music. I owned the HD650 for a long time (back when it was considered high-end), and have extensive experience with a 207. In fact, I have one here right now since a few months, and as I'm writing this I'm listening to some Bach cantatas. :)
If you want open and airy, you must pick the 207. There's no competition between the two, the 207 is miles ahead in that regard. Because classical music is often recorded in large halls and churches, hearing this spaciousness adds greatly to the music. It sounds so real, so spacious, it's marvellous, even better (also different) in that regard than my Stax SR-007 you could say. On top of that, the 207 has so much more resolution and speed that every instrument is rendered in a completely effortless way, even when the music gets very full of all kinds of instruments, percussion, choir etc. It's easier to make out every little detail, and the music just seems to exist, rather than be reproduced by a driver. You'll hear so much more information with the SR-207 than with the HD650, and especially with classical the experience is (therefore) so much more pleasing with the 207. Classical recordings are often very well done, making it rewarding to listen to them with an electrostat.
​I'm not usually this strong voiced when it comes to comparing headphones or other equipment, but in this case I really feel that the 207 is many times better than the HD650. In general I find electrostatics to sound clearer than dynamics, and this is another aspect in which two headphones couldn't be further apart: the 207 super clear on the one hand, and the HD650 veiled (YES) on the other hand.
 
The HD650 does have a lovely midrange and a (more than slightly) dark signature. However, this soup it pours over everything can't be switched off. Yes, it makes for a cosy, warm sound with classical and vocals. It's more like an old opera house with heavy textiles on the walls and all over the place, dampening the higher frequencies, while the 207 is more like a modern concert hall or church with harder materials, letting you hear all the overtones as if you were close to the instrument.
The 207 is by no means bright. I have heard bright headphones (Stax SR-507 and Sennheiser HE60 for example, also HD800), and the 207 is not that. It's a bit mid-centric, but not by much, it is probably the most neutral pair of headphones I've ever heard, along with the 202. I also prefer the 207 and 202 to the HD800 by the way. The 207 does not have any irritating peaks in its frequency response. The term 'neutral' often gets misused by people who are trying to trivialise the bright nature of a pair of headphones, but in this case it's true: the 207 is not bright.
 
It is my strong opinion that you should choose the 207, and accept the fact that it will not have the dark signature you search. You could try to attain this in your system by choosing a dark sounding DAC, if you must, but try the 207 first and see if you still want it dark.
 
Combining an open and airy sound with a dark signature is very difficult to do, because more high frequency information leads to a better defined rendition of spacial cues. Thus, a bright headphone will sound more spacious than a dark headphone, and in a sense, you're asking for the impossible. The SR-007 however, almost pulls off this difficult combination, meaning that it does have slightly attenuated highs and smaller soundstage, but also a very precise placement of instruments and an incredible level of detail, and on top of that a lovely midrange. It's in a different price class, obviously, but within the Stax range, I guess it's the most HD650-like.

 
When did you purchase the HD 650? Sounds like you're describing the old version. I had the newer version and it wasn't that much darker than the SR-207.
 
Since you hold the SR-207 in such high regard and also own the SR-007, do you have any comparative impressions of the SR-009?
 
Sep 6, 2016 at 6:31 PM Post #2,292 of 3,322
   
The extra 'computer noise' you're describing is also caused by incorrect grounding. I experienced this exact problem with my USB DAC. Fixing the grounding solved it completely. Also, I recognize that you can influence the hum by touching the case. This is also something I experienced with my Stax amp, and which I solved by fixing the grounding.
Probably, if you were to ground the case directly with a copper wire to earth, your problem would be solved. This helps for me. Unfortunately, the SRM-Xh doesn't have a ground binding post on the back, like the bigger Stax amps (for precisely this issue!), so you would have to improvise here. It would be a shame to scratch some paint of to attach a wire somehow. What you could try, is to ground the source in your system, if it has a screw somewhere on the case under which you could attach a copper wire to earth. I used to use the bindings post on the back of my Stax SRM-717 to ground my whole system, but now I do it via my computer case. It doesn't have to be the source, it just needs to be the next (or 'next to next') case in your system that is connected to the SRM-Xh. The RCA cables from the source to the amp connect both of their cases and hence their ground (unless your source is double insulated), so if you ground the next case, you'll ground the SRM-Xh along with it. Basically this is what you do when you touch the case: you are providing a path for the electricity on the case to escape the system. You must provide this path in a different, permanent, low-resistance way to solve your problem.
How easy this is, depends what kind of outlets they have where you live, and in some cases how old your house is. If you do not have grounded outlets, you can try grounding your system by tying the copper wire to a radiator, water pipe or the ground of the radio/television cable. This is not exactly how it's supposed to be, but it works well in a lot of cases.
The reason it works normally with your other sources, could be that these have grounded power cords to grounded outlets, while your raspberry pi and Stax amp both do not have grounded cords to their cases, leaving you with an ungrounded system.
 
 
In my opinion, a Stax SR-207 is VASTLY better than a Sennheiser HD650, for any genre, but especially for classical music. I owned the HD650 for a long time (back when it was considered high-end), and have extensive experience with a 207. In fact, I have one here right now since a few months, and as I'm writing this I'm listening to some Bach cantatas. :)
If you want open and airy, you must pick the 207. There's no competition between the two, the 207 is miles ahead in that regard. Because classical music is often recorded in large halls and churches, hearing this spaciousness adds greatly to the music. It sounds so real, so spacious, it's marvellous, even better (also different) in that regard than my Stax SR-007 you could say. On top of that, the 207 has so much more resolution and speed that every instrument is rendered in a completely effortless way, even when the music gets very full of all kinds of instruments, percussion, choir etc. It's easier to make out every little detail, and the music just seems to exist, rather than be reproduced by a driver. You'll hear so much more information with the SR-207 than with the HD650, and especially with classical the experience is (therefore) so much more pleasing with the 207. Classical recordings are often very well done, making it rewarding to listen to them with an electrostat.
​I'm not usually this strong voiced when it comes to comparing headphones or other equipment, but in this case I really feel that the 207 is many times better than the HD650. In general I find electrostatics to sound clearer than dynamics, and this is another aspect in which two headphones couldn't be further apart: the 207 super clear on the one hand, and the HD650 veiled (YES) on the other hand.
 
The HD650 does have a lovely midrange and a (more than slightly) dark signature. However, this soup it pours over everything can't be switched off. Yes, it makes for a cosy, warm sound with classical and vocals. It's more like an old opera house with heavy textiles on the walls and all over the place, dampening the higher frequencies, while the 207 is more like a modern concert hall or church with harder materials, letting you hear all the overtones as if you were close to the instrument.
The 207 is by no means bright. I have heard bright headphones (Stax SR-507 and Sennheiser HE60 for example, also HD800), and the 207 is not that. It's a bit mid-centric, but not by much, it is probably the most neutral pair of headphones I've ever heard, along with the 202. I also prefer the 207 and 202 to the HD800 by the way. The 207 does not have any irritating peaks in its frequency response. The term 'neutral' often gets misused by people who are trying to trivialise the bright nature of a pair of headphones, but in this case it's true: the 207 is not bright.
 
It is my strong opinion that you should choose the 207, and accept the fact that it will not have the dark signature you search. You could try to attain this in your system by choosing a dark sounding DAC, if you must, but try the 207 first and see if you still want it dark.
 
Combining an open and airy sound with a dark signature is very difficult to do, because more high frequency information leads to a better defined rendition of spacial cues. Thus, a bright headphone will sound more spacious than a dark headphone, and in a sense, you're asking for the impossible. The SR-007 however, almost pulls off this difficult combination, meaning that it does have slightly attenuated highs and smaller soundstage, but also a very precise placement of instruments and an incredible level of detail, and on top of that a lovely midrange. It's in a different price class, obviously, but within the Stax range, I guess it's the most HD650-like.


Thanks for the input I will consider it. I am not currently sure what my plan exactly is but all advise helps.
 
Sep 7, 2016 at 1:46 AM Post #2,293 of 3,322
  I wouldn't recommend the SR-207/SRS-2170 either if you're a Sennheiser fan. Perhaps compare the HE-400 (original version preferably) against the HD650.

I owned the HE400 (original v.) for a while, and really found it treble very irritating. I wouldn't mind bright headphones, but the quality of treble has to be at least excellent...not the case for the HE400. It had a dry, sibilant midrange--same as the HE560. Bass was fantastic--pretty much the only positive thing I can say about it.
 
I owned the HD650 over a decade ago. Warm headphones with the same pleasant treble as the HD600. I prefer my current HD600, though, as it's a much more accurate, but still engaging sound. 
 
Sep 7, 2016 at 4:08 AM Post #2,294 of 3,322
  I owned the HE400 (original v.) for a while, and really found it treble very irritating. I wouldn't mind bright headphones, but the quality of treble has to be at least excellent...not the case for the HE400. It had a dry, sibilant midrange--same as the HE560. Bass was fantastic--pretty much the only positive thing I can say about it.
 
I owned the HD650 over a decade ago. Warm headphones with the same pleasant treble as the HD600. I prefer my current HD600, though, as it's a much more accurate, but still engaging sound. 

Switching to Audeze vegan pads helped even out the treble slightly for me. I recommended auditioning a reasonably priced open-back magnetic planar design as some people find them to generally be more resolving than most dynamic drivers along with having improved bass linearity. I can also easily understand why many would prefer the HD600/650.
 
Sep 7, 2016 at 5:59 AM Post #2,295 of 3,322
Originally Posted by brandnewgame /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Definitely demo a Stax system if possible as the realism is in another league, even if the SRS-2170 isn't my cup of tea. To my ears they're brighter than the HD-600, HE-5LE, LCD-XC, ATH-MSR7 and GS1000, though maybe the lean bass and unique presentation is confusing my ears. The first time I listened to them my inner ears were sore for hours which was surprising as I listen at low volumes. I'm still hugely impressed and now aiming for the SR-L700.
 
 
 
I think you're right about the bass quantity and my bias for darker sounding headphones. I'll re-evaluate the SR-207 over the next few months and will probably grow to appreciate them for more than acoustic instruments and vocals.

Hmm, did you try the "straw mod" on your 207's? That increased bass volume nicely for me (still nowhere near basshead volumes), and I detected none of the ill effects of porting the pads that make others advise against it.....but I'm not a critical listener, either. I just let the music play, man :) Peace!
 
With the straw mod, my 2170 isn't exactly neutral, but still close enough that I feel HD600 is the closest comparison in my collection; and in short,there is NO comparison LOL. At least for the genres I listen to, Stax bests HD600 cleanly in every metric I could think of, excepting perhaps soundstage size. I'm not a huge Classical fan though, so if that's your thing, others would give better advice.
 
I describe my Stax as a W-shaped HD600....with a +2dB boost across the board, more or less.
 
I'm actually jealous of your collection! I'd love to own some Audeze, but I'm a po' boy LOL. I'm glad I now own a 2170 system...for me it's good enough and I'm stopping in my search.
 
And as a basshead compliment to the Stax, my X00 Purplehearts are also good enough to satisfy and keep me from wistfully eyeing the TOTL crop. These 2 will be my long-term pairing for awhile, I think.
 

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